Feminism is less about equality and more about celebrating gender difference? Discuss.

Exactly Orm. The best description I've heard of feminism is, 'biology shouldn't be destiny...'

I think that works on several levels.

I never want my DD to feel that she is limited or forced into anything because she is female. Her biology must not be allowed to define her.

Ok. That is well and good. But feminism isn't just about choice, it is also about responsibility isn't it? So you can do the traditional motherhood role if it is what you want but also if it is right for your circumstances - it's no good getting angry and upset if it isn't possible for eg to stay at home until the child starts school if there isn't the money. Being a feminist means taking an equal share of the responsibility for the family whatever form that might take.

"Can you be a female Prime Minister without having to act like a man? " How is that exactly? Isn't that sort of generalisation one of the things we don't want?

I just meant it as an example of something that used to be men-only. I agree it's not that simple....

I was thinking about this a bit more (while peeling the potatoes ) and I think there's 3 ways of looking at it, and only one of them seems right to me...

Take something like being a firefighter -

If women and men were completely the same in all ways, then you wouldn't be able to say that we had equality until fire departments had an equal number of women firefighters. But that doesn't seem to have any connection to real life.

OTOH if men and women are "equal but different" then it would be fair to say that women don't generally have the skills/attitiude to be firefighters and therefore they should not be able to join. But that we should value "women's work" just as much as "men's work" because though we are different we need each other. But that just feels very patronising.

To me the only option that works is to say that, on averege, more men than women tend to have the skills and attitude for firefighting. But that there are many women who still do have those skills etc. And therefore, if a woman can show that she has the necessary skills (the genuinely necessary ones, not some arbitrary ones set up to ensure no woman can pass) then she should be just as able to join and move up through the ranks and be treated as the equal of the men she works with.

At my work they have stopped talking as much about "equality" and started talking about "respecting diversity" and I think that is a good thing. As a manager, I am meant to make sure that I treat all my staff fairly, but that means I have to take into account things like gender, race, religion, disability, work/life balance etc - so I am to find a balance between all their different sets of needs and wishes when allocating work, arranging meetings, cnsidering leave requests etc. eg I should not arrange meetings at a time that is difficult for some people's preferred work patterns (we have flexi-time), or at least not to regularly inconvenience the same person! Particularly if their work patterns are not just because they prefer them, but to fit in with childcare, elderly relatives, religious requirements etc.

"It's about women being allowed and able to do spot welding if they desire, and not being prevented from doing so by friends famiy or employers assuming they are competent at it."

I mean that employers should not disciminate against women doing spot welding, if they can do the job well.

The thing for me is that yes people are different and have different interests and strengths and so on, and absolutely they should be able to do the things that they want.

It's not about all women having to learn to do spot welding. It's about women being allowed and able to do spot welding if they desire, and not being prevented from doing so by friends famiy or employers assuming they are competent at it.

The whole women returning to work full time 2 weeks after giving birth - (let's face it there aren't very many of them) - that is their choice and it's good they are able to make that choice. Not so long ago women had to give up work on getting married, and definitely on having children. My great-aunt had this problme, she was a doctor. Can you imagine? Not being allowed to work as you have married.

it's all about choice, within the framework of accepting that there is a fundamental difference between men and women - childbearing.

Again, for me feminism has nothing to do with wanting to stand up on the tube when you're pregnant and feeling like shit. Why would it? It has to do with not being treated less favourably at work because you are pregnant, or fired because of it, things like that.

As for the leave - personally I believe it should be made so that men and women can share it as they see fit. Past the actual chidbearing and BF part, really there's no reason that the women should be the one who stays at home unless that is the choice of the people involved. So in your relationship you would choose to have a year off. For DH and I we would probably have like to do 6 months each. Others might prefer to go back v quickly and have their partner take the leave.

It's all about freedom, and choice, and not being treated badly or differently because of your sex. So if you choose to be a SAHM and bake and knit and have a DH who does manual labour and has a couple of pints after work and comes home to dinner on the table. Well that's fine if that's what you want.

Feminism isn't to do with removing choices from anyone, but giving everyone more and fairer choices. And it's not to do with telling people how they have to live or be.

I think the thing for me is that "equal" doesn't always mean "the same". If you have a child who loves football and a child who loves ballet, then taking them to a football match is treating them the same but not fairly.

Equality amongst people doesn't mean pretending they are all the same in every way, it is about treating each one as an individual and respecting them as that, whether or not they match up to a stereotype doesn't matter, the important thing is treating tem as an individual not the stereotype.

The answer to your issue is that feminism isn't an orthodoxy - there has been debate, indeed, about whether it should be called "feminisms " - ie a range of theories which have to do with investigating gender-based issues. The point is to challenge and consider and develop, not to prescribe. Your concerns about gender difference have a place in feminism just as someone else's concerns about strict pay equality. And someone else's about the extreme burden third-world women carry.

I know it doesn't come across like that in the media, but the media is not known for promoting subtlety!