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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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UncleTed · 24/10/2026 12:51

CoolforKats · 23/10/2026 23:47

You’re conveniently missing the over arching point that financial success doesn't equal intellectual & moral authority.

The only thing I would add to that is so called 'feminists' with such classist hierarchical sensibilities is an oxymoron.

Edited

JKR’s supreme financial success does not equal intellectual and moral authority, but it does mean she cannot be cancelled for standing up for the rights of women and girls, in a culture where cancellation is exactly what happens to anyone who stands up for the rights of women and girls in opposition to trans identifying men. JKR’s wealth means she is not afraid to speak, because she cannot lose her livelihood.
Bummer.

TRAs have created the very hierarchy you speak of, by destroying anyone who does not ascribe to their beliefs. Thus JKR’s wealth has become invaluable.

murasaki · 24/10/2026 12:52

ArabellaScott · 24/10/2026 12:46

I am enjoying these very potted versions. Can you do Gilgamesh?

Sorry, outside my time period. But you can have the Aeneid - boring man leaves hot woman for career in town planning.

GreyskySexRealistsky · 24/10/2026 13:16

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/10/2026 12:18

I’ve just listened to loads of similar fuckwit men droning on about it on Reddit. I don’t normally post but I did. I need to come off social media today!

Go and have a lie down in a darkened room and pop on Convoluted Incoherence on 78 rpm. Balm for the (gendered) soul 🎃

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/10/2026 14:11

GreyskySexRealistsky · 24/10/2026 13:16

Go and have a lie down in a darkened room and pop on Convoluted Incoherence on 78 rpm. Balm for the (gendered) soul 🎃

just done that thanks! Legends.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/10/2026 14:12

ArabellaScott · 24/10/2026 12:47

It's pure AI, though. 'ChatGPT, construct a pompous argument to take down JKR in the voice of a bitter, underachieving misogynist'.

Exactly.

MarcTheGenderSkeptic · 24/10/2026 14:32

I don't really care if Margaret Atwood or Katie Price says things. If they're true, that's all that matters. For any number of reasons, it's Rowling.
It could have been another rich bulletproof writer like Stephen King. It could have been a rich bulletproof singer like Taylor Swift, Sting or Beyonce. It could have been another rich bulletproof actor like Keira Knightley, Zendaya or Robert Pattison.
Or 101 other prominent artists that would command respect, and couldn't easily be cancelled.
It's the depth of character, fortitude of spirit, moral certainty, and clarity of common sense that matters. These matter way more than any academic career spent in the weeds of gender ideology as per Judith Butler, all her PhDs are worth fuck all if she doesn't speak the truth.
I'm not saying those on my list don't have these qualities, there are many reasons the most prominent in society haven't said anything against gender ideology.
What I'm saying is that Rowling not only has these attributes, she's displayed them publically, and has used her unique position to move the zeitgeist.
Being a billionaire absolutely pivotal to being brave in public, but her views aren't those of a billionaire, they're the views shared by the vast vast majority of working class women and middle class women not absorbed by the ideology.
Her voice has to be a thousand times louder because of the thousand potentially influential voices that chose to be, or were pressurized to be, silent.

MarcTheGenderSkeptic · 24/10/2026 14:46

Additionally, her charge against the unions is spot on. I get the TRAs working in the NHS and education pushing their agenda religiously. I get the academics high on their supply of Marcuse, Foucault and Butler.
But what I don't get is how people running unions who are there to support working class women and have some say in Labour Party politics, have decided to tack to this creed.
The RCN would rather let Peggie, Mellie and the Darlington nurses burn in hell than defend them against an intemperate religion.
Even when the early unions and Labour Party came out of the proud Methodist tradition, there was more free speech and political discourse and dissent than there is today.
You could say the unions are right up there as most culpable organisations promoting this anti-humanitarian ethos, the ones in the NHS, and schools, by far the worst.
It's totally appropriate Rowling tore a big strip off them in her essay.

nicepotoftea · 24/10/2026 14:51

MarieDeGournay · 23/10/2026 23:49

Who wrote that piece about JKR, CoolforKats?
It's odd to post random unattributed writing - source, please!

It is interesting to see how the 'JKR is evil' vibe is being toned down to well, granted, she writes good children's books, and granted they are hugely popular and granted she had donated millions to good causes and so on..
but she doesn't have the
the intellectual equipment of a political philosopher, social historian, legal scholar or feminist theorist
and [trigger warning, as this will come as a huge shock to everybody!]
she is hardly the intellectual or literary equivalent of Jane Austen, Mary Shelley or the Brontës... Maya Angelou, Audre Lorde or Alice Walker.

There aren't you glad I warned you? because up to now, until our eyes were opened by this writer, every one of us admirers of JKR believed that she absolutely and undeniably is
the intellectual or literary equivalent of Jane Austen, Mary Shelley or the Brontës... Maya Angelou, Audre Lorde or Alice Walker
as well as a political philosopher, social historian, legal scholar and feminist theorist!

I just hope JKR never reads this, it would completely crush her to learn that she is not, as she [apparently] claims to be, the the intellectual or literary equivalent of Jane Austen, Mary Shelley or the Brontës... Maya Angelou, Audre Lorde or Alice Walker.

I wonder if the 'well what does she really know about anything anyway' argument has wider use?

"Dear Croydon Council, I have received the attached parking ticket and note the picture of my car which you claim is parked on a double yellow line.

I am challenging the charge on the basis that the parking attendant can hardly be the intellectual or literary equivalent of Jane Austen, Mary Shelley or the Brontës... Maya Angelou, Audre Lorde or Alice Walker, and therefore is not in a position to pontificate on the meaning of words like 'yellow' and 'double' and 'line'. I will take this to the ECtHR if necessary.

cc: GLP"

murasaki · 24/10/2026 14:57

nicepotoftea · 24/10/2026 14:51

I wonder if the 'well what does she really know about anything anyway' argument has wider use?

"Dear Croydon Council, I have received the attached parking ticket and note the picture of my car which you claim is parked on a double yellow line.

I am challenging the charge on the basis that the parking attendant can hardly be the intellectual or literary equivalent of Jane Austen, Mary Shelley or the Brontës... Maya Angelou, Audre Lorde or Alice Walker, and therefore is not in a position to pontificate on the meaning of words like 'yellow' and 'double' and 'line'. I will take this to the ECtHR if necessary.

cc: GLP"

Ooh, I think DP has a parking ticket that needs paying, I'll suggest he tries this....

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 24/10/2026 15:00

@MarcTheGenderSkeptic But what I don't get is how people running unions who are there to support working class women and have some say in Labour Party politics, have decided to tack to this creed.

Identity politics, innit. They have given up on ever persuading the UK public to vote for any far-left ideology so they have pivoted to the politics of trying to unite every 'marginalized' group they can find or invent into a political wave that they can ride into power. Of course, they are herding cats and the predators at the top keep eating each other, so the going is hard.

MoistVonL · 24/10/2026 15:09

I've had a lovely half hour reading this thread - thank you for making me laugh so much! The women (and occasional bloke) of FWR never let me down

I also love the summary of the Iliad and Aeneas.

MarcTheGenderSkeptic · 24/10/2026 15:13

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 24/10/2026 15:00

@MarcTheGenderSkeptic But what I don't get is how people running unions who are there to support working class women and have some say in Labour Party politics, have decided to tack to this creed.

Identity politics, innit. They have given up on ever persuading the UK public to vote for any far-left ideology so they have pivoted to the politics of trying to unite every 'marginalized' group they can find or invent into a political wave that they can ride into power. Of course, they are herding cats and the predators at the top keep eating each other, so the going is hard.

All those women at the top of unions so disappointed with their hard-to-herd working class female dissenters.
Sharon Graham and Andrea Egan come to mind.

SidewaysOtter · 24/10/2026 15:32

MarcTheGenderSkeptic · 24/10/2026 14:46

Additionally, her charge against the unions is spot on. I get the TRAs working in the NHS and education pushing their agenda religiously. I get the academics high on their supply of Marcuse, Foucault and Butler.
But what I don't get is how people running unions who are there to support working class women and have some say in Labour Party politics, have decided to tack to this creed.
The RCN would rather let Peggie, Mellie and the Darlington nurses burn in hell than defend them against an intemperate religion.
Even when the early unions and Labour Party came out of the proud Methodist tradition, there was more free speech and political discourse and dissent than there is today.
You could say the unions are right up there as most culpable organisations promoting this anti-humanitarian ethos, the ones in the NHS, and schools, by far the worst.
It's totally appropriate Rowling tore a big strip off them in her essay.

Edited

The trade union movement has never been a friend to women. They didn't support women when we wanted the vote, they didn't support women when we wanted equal pay, they haven't supported women when we wanted protection of single sex spaces and rights.

The question of why this is baffles me. I suspect it's a multi-pronged thing: the 'noble' class struggle comes first and women's rights are what they'll get round to once we've achieved a socialist utopia. Men have historically benefited most from closed shops and the 'acceptable' face of power and hierarchy that union leadership gave. They didn't want to give those privileges up, and women were expected to fall into line as support humans. The left also seems wedded to the idea of knowing what's best for everyone, and the adoption of certain causes - trans rights, anti-colonialism and Gaza being the current fashions - to be championed over pretty much everything else is seen as acceptable because those who choose the causes hold themselves as morally and intellectually superior.

That there are women at the top of the unions - Jo Grady of UCU deserves a dishonourable mention here alongside Egan et al - just compounds the issue.

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 24/10/2026 15:36

MarcTheGenderSkeptic · 24/10/2026 15:13

All those women at the top of unions so disappointed with their hard-to-herd working class female dissenters.
Sharon Graham and Andrea Egan come to mind.

Edited

I'm sure that they tell themselves that the important thing is to get into power, and then they will do all sorts of amazing things for women. Until then, so what if a bunch of ordinary women get hurt. Eggs and omelettes. Ofc if/when they do get into power, either the men will take over or they will not be allowed to do anything for women if it disadvantages men.
I almost see it as a test of loyalty that has been set for them. Or maybe they have set it for themselves: Who is prepared to sacrifice the most women in order to get into/maintain power? Like God telling Abraham to sacrifice Isaac.

Cynical mood today. Must be the weather😂

MarcTheGenderSkeptic · 24/10/2026 15:44

SidewaysOtter · 24/10/2026 15:32

The trade union movement has never been a friend to women. They didn't support women when we wanted the vote, they didn't support women when we wanted equal pay, they haven't supported women when we wanted protection of single sex spaces and rights.

The question of why this is baffles me. I suspect it's a multi-pronged thing: the 'noble' class struggle comes first and women's rights are what they'll get round to once we've achieved a socialist utopia. Men have historically benefited most from closed shops and the 'acceptable' face of power and hierarchy that union leadership gave. They didn't want to give those privileges up, and women were expected to fall into line as support humans. The left also seems wedded to the idea of knowing what's best for everyone, and the adoption of certain causes - trans rights, anti-colonialism and Gaza being the current fashions - to be championed over pretty much everything else is seen as acceptable because those who choose the causes hold themselves as morally and intellectually superior.

That there are women at the top of the unions - Jo Grady of UCU deserves a dishonourable mention here alongside Egan et al - just compounds the issue.

It's taken me a <long> time to rationalize all this, from a Substack saying trans rights are men's rights, Helen Joyce outlining the impossibility of liberals in positions of policy making who have trans IDd children or have family/friends/colleagues in similar situations unable to ever reconsider and thus recant in public, the sheer adrenaline of being on the "right side of history", the addiction of the Foucault "language is violence", "reality comes from the words we use to describe the world not imposed objective phenomena" philosophical axis, the left generally and especially trade unions moving from pure class analysis (Marx effectively) to class plus cultural idents (Marcuse etc onwards).
Academia and the unions high on their own supply.

ArabellaScott · 24/10/2026 19:16

SidewaysOtter · 24/10/2026 15:32

The trade union movement has never been a friend to women. They didn't support women when we wanted the vote, they didn't support women when we wanted equal pay, they haven't supported women when we wanted protection of single sex spaces and rights.

The question of why this is baffles me. I suspect it's a multi-pronged thing: the 'noble' class struggle comes first and women's rights are what they'll get round to once we've achieved a socialist utopia. Men have historically benefited most from closed shops and the 'acceptable' face of power and hierarchy that union leadership gave. They didn't want to give those privileges up, and women were expected to fall into line as support humans. The left also seems wedded to the idea of knowing what's best for everyone, and the adoption of certain causes - trans rights, anti-colonialism and Gaza being the current fashions - to be championed over pretty much everything else is seen as acceptable because those who choose the causes hold themselves as morally and intellectually superior.

That there are women at the top of the unions - Jo Grady of UCU deserves a dishonourable mention here alongside Egan et al - just compounds the issue.

It's depressing how every marginalised and oppressed group in the entire world is worth fighting for, except, apparently, women.

MarcTheGenderSkeptic · 24/10/2026 19:22

ArabellaScott · 24/10/2026 19:16

It's depressing how every marginalised and oppressed group in the entire world is worth fighting for, except, apparently, women.

The "world is made up of men and support people (women)" is never more true than with "men (transwomen) and support people (transmaidens)"

Wishesandhorses · 24/10/2026 19:30

The left/omnicause movement only likes marginalised groups that stay nicely in their place, say nothing off message, don't expect to be seen as real people with real opinions, and fail to be nicely patronised and headpatted in the expected way. It's about the powerful and happy to be so very nicely being lady bountiful on their own terms in ways that are useful to them and their agenda. Hence the mask dropping in seconds if for example a disability, a faith, a culture, poverty/class or anything else is suddenly found to get in the way of a man from said powerful group doing what he wants to with them. Equally the loud ranting about the evils of colonialism while quite liking doing it in practice while they're the colonisers and the beneficiaries. All mouthing the virtuous words and liking the feelz with no actual integrity or commitment to values involved.

I remain incredibly disappointed to have learned this. But then Charles Dickens was taking the mickey out of people like this in his books 175 years ago. Plus ca change.

GreyskySexRealistsky · 24/10/2026 20:00

CoolforKats · 22/10/2026 00:23

Depends on the man. I was once hit by an enormous wave at the beach & landed in an old man's lap. It was embarrassing but hardly the same thing as a younger man.

😂
This is basically the entire plot of a Carry On film

Imdunfer · 24/10/2026 20:07

Wishesandhorses · 24/10/2026 19:30

The left/omnicause movement only likes marginalised groups that stay nicely in their place, say nothing off message, don't expect to be seen as real people with real opinions, and fail to be nicely patronised and headpatted in the expected way. It's about the powerful and happy to be so very nicely being lady bountiful on their own terms in ways that are useful to them and their agenda. Hence the mask dropping in seconds if for example a disability, a faith, a culture, poverty/class or anything else is suddenly found to get in the way of a man from said powerful group doing what he wants to with them. Equally the loud ranting about the evils of colonialism while quite liking doing it in practice while they're the colonisers and the beneficiaries. All mouthing the virtuous words and liking the feelz with no actual integrity or commitment to values involved.

I remain incredibly disappointed to have learned this. But then Charles Dickens was taking the mickey out of people like this in his books 175 years ago. Plus ca change.

Edited

And on top of they they have a hierarchy of marginalised groups.

So you will find full support for women wanting to wear a burkha, until such time as that woman says "but I can't swim if you let male bodied people in the changing room and pool" and the suddenly the group the left support is trans males.

Whether this is because they are a smaller group, a more fashionable group to support, or something else I've never understood. But the pattern repeats again and again.

GreyskySexRealistsky · 24/10/2026 20:08

Imdunfer · 24/10/2026 20:07

And on top of they they have a hierarchy of marginalised groups.

So you will find full support for women wanting to wear a burkha, until such time as that woman says "but I can't swim if you let male bodied people in the changing room and pool" and the suddenly the group the left support is trans males.

Whether this is because they are a smaller group, a more fashionable group to support, or something else I've never understood. But the pattern repeats again and again.

Absolutely this

MarcTheGenderSkeptic · 24/10/2026 20:17

Wishesandhorses · 24/10/2026 19:30

The left/omnicause movement only likes marginalised groups that stay nicely in their place, say nothing off message, don't expect to be seen as real people with real opinions, and fail to be nicely patronised and headpatted in the expected way. It's about the powerful and happy to be so very nicely being lady bountiful on their own terms in ways that are useful to them and their agenda. Hence the mask dropping in seconds if for example a disability, a faith, a culture, poverty/class or anything else is suddenly found to get in the way of a man from said powerful group doing what he wants to with them. Equally the loud ranting about the evils of colonialism while quite liking doing it in practice while they're the colonisers and the beneficiaries. All mouthing the virtuous words and liking the feelz with no actual integrity or commitment to values involved.

I remain incredibly disappointed to have learned this. But then Charles Dickens was taking the mickey out of people like this in his books 175 years ago. Plus ca change.

Edited

The Left's looking the other way on radical Islam is one of the genuine conundrums of modern times, in its way as preposterous as belief in trans ideology.
Can only imagine it comes from an atheistic worldview which hated the Christian Enlightenment West more than Islam, all the tropes that the left rails against ie colonialism, slavery is present in both religions historically, but it's our side that has to be most opposed.
In a world where the lived experience of brown people oppressed by white people is taken as gospel, the white Christian West always fails to the brown Islamic world.
Of course, as noted, the sympathy is 100% for the Burka wearing Muslim woman...until she objects to a transwoman in her changing room etc. Then she's as much the devil as the cisheteropatriarchal white male.

ArabellaScott · 24/10/2026 21:23

Wishesandhorses · 24/10/2026 19:30

The left/omnicause movement only likes marginalised groups that stay nicely in their place, say nothing off message, don't expect to be seen as real people with real opinions, and fail to be nicely patronised and headpatted in the expected way. It's about the powerful and happy to be so very nicely being lady bountiful on their own terms in ways that are useful to them and their agenda. Hence the mask dropping in seconds if for example a disability, a faith, a culture, poverty/class or anything else is suddenly found to get in the way of a man from said powerful group doing what he wants to with them. Equally the loud ranting about the evils of colonialism while quite liking doing it in practice while they're the colonisers and the beneficiaries. All mouthing the virtuous words and liking the feelz with no actual integrity or commitment to values involved.

I remain incredibly disappointed to have learned this. But then Charles Dickens was taking the mickey out of people like this in his books 175 years ago. Plus ca change.

Edited

Spot on, unfortunately.

ArabellaScott · 24/10/2026 21:29

I reckon it's as Wishes says upthread. As long as the marginalised group doesnt threaten to impinge on the Benevolent and Gracious, they get a warm feeling of pity and piety. As soon as the marginalised group looks at risk of becoming real people with real inner lives they become problematic.

The B&G want pets and toys. 'Protect the Dolls' is excruciatingly prescient.

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 24/10/2026 21:30

Imdunfer · 24/10/2026 20:07

And on top of they they have a hierarchy of marginalised groups.

So you will find full support for women wanting to wear a burkha, until such time as that woman says "but I can't swim if you let male bodied people in the changing room and pool" and the suddenly the group the left support is trans males.

Whether this is because they are a smaller group, a more fashionable group to support, or something else I've never understood. But the pattern repeats again and again.

It's because they are men I imagine. I can't get over a female, black nurse being called a n**r (!!!) and yet the omnicause still goes in to bat for the trans, male rapist.

Edit: strange interaction between MN and asterisks, sorry