A Man in a dress- how would you feel?

Yes @AskingQuestionsAllTheTime , I agree. And I doubt there are very many women who have that particular fetish.

I can't help feeling that men getting sexually aroused by the fiction of themselves being women is a somewhat different thing from women getting sexually aroused by the fact of being women.

For there to be equivalence, wouldn't women need to be getting sexually aroused by the idea of themselves as men?

I know exactly how I responded to any of my transvestite friends back in the eighties; I gave them the bathroom in which to change if they wanted, and let them get on with it. That they all looked more or less like 1950s housewives off for an evening out was something I didn't ever say to any one of them, because it would have been unkind. I treated each as a person I knew, not as a woman I didn't know: for instance, I didn't need to ask "how do you like your tea?" because I already had that information.

But then, they were as you say not trying to pretend to be anything in particular or tell any lies. That makes a lot of difference. Nowadays there is a great deal more bullshit as part of the deal, and I probably wouldn't feel so relaxed because I have seen what may come of the whole business.

If I met one of them, back then, when I was out and about, I tried very hard to remember whether he was one of the ones who used a different name for his female persona and would be upset if I got it wrong, or one of the ones who really didn't care.

Oh, and I doubt that any of them would have dreamed of going into a ladies' lavatory in his twinset; he would have known that was wrong, and felt awkward about it. They were not so afraid of other men that the idea of taking a slash next to one meant they would be in mortal danger.

At the moment the two men I know who wear skirts instead of trousers in the summer do it because it is less hot, and similarly know which sex they are and behave according. And my DH, for the same reason, wears kaftans in summer when he is wfh. (I don't think he would on the tube, though.)

A straight bloke who has a misogystic view of women and a nasty piece of work.

There's a trans man who works in our local ASDA. He wears dresses, makeup and goes by a female name, uses the female staff toilets etc. I know a bit about his personal life as he's a friend of a friend and he's not gay, he likes women, but he refers to himself as a lesbian princess whatever that is.

Its a calculated to decision to cause a reaction and send a message.

Agreed. And that message is who we are. Its the internal world reflected externally. Clothes aren't just functional but they reflect style…& that's a personal reflection.

The context isn't potential harms tho. The context is why aren't males held to the same social standard in therms of presentation. All your other points are a separate issue that you appear to be weaponising against equal standards & diverting from the point.

I enjoyed the 70's and 80's youth scene and thought it was great fun when men wore a face full of make up, long sometimes permed hair and whatever feminine clothing they wanted. However they and we knew they were still men.

But when I see a bloke now in full make up, long hair and feminine clothing my immediate thought is "you'd better not try to come in the ladies changing room"!.

I still think I have a liberal outlook but the big difference between then and now is not what the blokes are wearing but the potential threat to my safety by men expecting me to accept them as women.

Responding to the OP.

The idea that we wear clothes only because we like the feel of them just doesn’t ring true for me.

We choose clothing with intention. To reflect what we are doing, where we are going and who we will be seen by and importantly the message those choices convey to others.

This morning I got up and dressed in a pair of leggings and long sleeved top that had seen better days and paint spattered trainers as I was going to finish restoring a piece of furniture I’d inherited. All comfy as hell, not trying to make a statement, just clothes I liked suited to the task in hand.

Later I needed to pop to the supermarket, so I got changed into a pair of jeans, a nice jumper and new trainers. I could have gone in my previous outfit - I was perfectly decent, but my intention was that I didn’t look like a total slob in front of both strangers and anyone I may know and bump into.

That second outfit would be fine to meet friends in the pub, a casual Sunday dinner at my parents house and a plethora of other occasions and was, also pretty comfy.

Would I wear it to my work or a wedding - no, because in those situations it would demonstrate à lack of professionalism (in my work context) or a lack of care/respect for those inviting me to an important celebration.

So when you hypothesise that a man might wear a dress in public without any agenda, other than he just likes it I call bullshit.

Its a calculated to decision to cause a reaction and send a message.

It might be being “edgy” or a belief of being cool in bluring gender norms but as sure hell it’s not because female clothing is more comfortable (especially on a male shaped body).

Whatever the reason, the one thing I’d be sure about is that is has absolutely nothing to do with promoting women’s rights - rather it’s a rather pointed message that “I can because I’m a man” and nobody will challenge me -however unsuitably dressed I am for the occasion or how uncomfortable it makes others feel - because they fear my reaction and being labelled as bigot/uncool.

The intention here is to flaunt that power and get a kick out of knowing that people are uncomfortable/feel powerless to comment.

So if my DH started raiding my wardrobe on the basis my dresses “felt nice” then frankly he wouldn’t be my H for long because he’d be lying.

In our sexist society, wearing gendered clothing is charged with power dynamics. We can try and pretend that its a neutral act, but its not.

Its possible to subvert or try to question this dynamic of course, but it seems so often to involve a sexual element when men do it that I am a bit wary about men who ostentatiously wear women coded clothing. Caution born of experience.

What point are you making? It's not strange to be attracted to your own body, even if it's been changed. It isn't a 'bad' thing to be attractive to yourself while fantasising about yourself as something other then reality.

The harm comes when it becomes such an obsession that you remove your own healthy body parts and/or believe that those changes or feelings entitled you be treated as something you aren't. The harm comes in telling children that it's the answer to their problems. The harm comes in the fantasy somehow overriding other people's reality.

I'll also note that most of the operations you mention are considered 'cosmetic' and aren't provided by the NHS. I wouldn't do any of those unless it was repairing or restoring something personally.

You also didn't address my later points. Even if AGP in woman is a thing. How does that effect anyone but those individuals?

The paraphilia is doing the same but crucially about body parts or attributes you DO NOT possess.

Um, women get boobs & bums 'they did not originally possess' & it increases their libido.

Many studies show that procedures like breast augmentation, abdominoplasty and labiaplasty frequently correlate with higher sexual satisfaction, greater arousal, and improved intimacy.

That study is rather impenetrable without signing up to various things, I struggled to find the actual questions that were asked of participants but the whole concept of the study is bizarre.

Is it surprising that someone thinking about sexual attributes that they in fact possess (eg their own genitals) could be arousing? Of course not.

The paraphilia is doing the same but crucially about body parts or attributes you DO NOT possess. Like being aroused by the idea of having missing limbs when you are able bodied.

It's kind of a moot point to the discussion anyway. Is women being sexually attractive to some idea of their physical selves somehow harmful or maladaptive? Are they seeking surgery to fix something? Are they saying children should be taking drugs to feel the same way? Are they demanding access to a space that they shouldn't be in because they feel sexually attracted to themselves??

Whatever criticism people have of Moser's or Blanchard's work it points to something that is self evident tho….for women. You don't need Moser only to be a woman to know we 'enjoy' our own bodies. Of course some women don't but to allege that all women don't says more about the individual making this claim than anything else…& its called sexual repression.

Moser came to his study with the opinion that Blanchard was wrong. Moser then created his own scale (taking bits from Blanchard) to ‘measure’ AGP in women and ‘proved’ it existed. Moser’s work has been widely criticised. I assume you have an academic login and can look at the critiques of Moser (and later Serrano) and aren’t just relying on abstracts.

We know AGP is a thing

Indeed, for men AND women.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19591032/

Like mushrooms after rain, any post that acknowledges the complex relationship women have with the framework of expectations we are delievered into without a choice the day we are born triggers the wail "oh but women have agency! They just choose clothes that align with objectification, marginalisation and at the far end, sex work, domestic enslavement, FGM, to express their own innate authentic selves!"

Misogynist faux-feminism of the basest, naivest, stupidest kind.

Comparing men wearing 'womans' clothing to women wearing 'mens' is disingenuous. These acts are not symmetrical. Women have far fewer fetishes then men, are far less dangerous then men, are far less sexually driven then men.

Even a number of well known transwomen are open about the fact that their 'transness' started as a fetish. Eg Hayden who even went as far as full blown genital surgery to fulfill the fetish.

We know AGP is a thing, and just like our comments about not letting men into female toilets because we can't tell which ones are the 'nice' ones. We often can't tell the difference between the ones who are getting off on dressing 'feminine' Vs the ones who are innocently pushing social boundaries for positive reasons.

Saying this, I don't have an issue with men wearing whatever they want as long as it's situation appropriate exactly as I would feel if a women did the same. With men however there is the added consideration that it could be someone displaying sexually paraphilic behaviour.

There is a reason that women have an instinctual caution of such men. Fetishes and paraphilias tend to cluster. If they have one there are more likely to be others. Exhibitionism, vouyersim (like pretending to be a woman to enter a woman's changing room to watch women undress) and yes paedophilia are highly correlated among others.

This isn't me saying that transwomen are perverts, it's me saying that some of them will be and prison stats would suggest they are indeed more likely to be pervert then other men because of the clustering nature of paraphilias and the fact that they are happy to undermine the comfort of women only supports this.

Womens caution is not women's fault. Just like it isn't our fault if we are afraid to find ourselves alone on a dark street with a man. These fears are caused by human instincts, socialisation and collective experience.

We shouldn't be expected to 'get over it' when we bare the brunt of the consequences if we are wrong. Our fear isn't bigoted.

Men are very welcome to prove us wrong by not acting like predators...

Translation: Women have no individual agency & are programmable robots.

If you knew anything about feminist history you would know that the feminist pushback would have never existed without individual agency. According to you "entrenched male power & norms" prevents that.

Who needs the patriarchy when GC feminists will do their dirty work for them.

I dont care as long as he uses the Male loos and doesnt think he has magically turned into a woman just because he is in a frock. Give no fucks. Not terribly uncommon in the 90s or indeed the 70s. Bowie looked fabulous!

I'm sorry, are you suggesting Patriarchy wasn't - in fact in some places still is - an organised system of rape, enslavement, torture and murder?

Have you seen the trafficked women in German mega-brothels? The socially embedded levels of MVAWG in every country in the world including ours? The domestic labour expected and exploited from women?

And before you get all eye-rolly, what this has to do with "trans women wearing lippy" is that "trans women wearing lippy" is part of the same structural system that defines female people purely from the male perspective and in so doing reduces female people and female lives into resources to meet the needs of male people.

“These days, after years of misogyny from the trans industry, I would feel very different. I would suspect all cross-dressing men of being potential voyeurs or exhibitionists who would trespass in women’s spaces.”

Exactly this.
I would (now) see it as the thin end of the wedge, leading to unwilling involvement in someone's paraphilia.

On another thread, @TransParentlyAnnoyed, you voice your vehement support for a known racist. Yet when it suits you, racism is abhorrent.

As a Black woman I find this absolutely appalling. Please stop invoking people of colour and our struggles to suit your agenda when you are happy to condone and support racist people. And racist misogynists at that.

Oh right, racist (blackface upheld an organised system of rape, enslavement, torture and murder - trans women wearing lippy isn't the same thing) as well as enjoying making misogynistic, transphobic comments about appearance. Yeah, exactly the kind of comment I'll reply to in detail.

Ugh.

It's not bizarre at all, it's just that you ignore the nuance. And as part of that, you are deliberately (?) mis-understanding the historical power imbalance between men and women even today, and the dark-side of the "sexual revolution", where womens empowerment to make sexual choices has been bastardised and sold back to us in a form that continues to sexualise us and objectify us while telling us we are the winners here, at the population level, without actually emancipating us to be truly free from the male gaze, and entrenched male power and norms. Hence porn that "empowers" women while it actually degrades us, and "sex work is work", which is actually majority desperate women with no other real options for survival, or even "just" believing that your real value lies in appearing attractive to men, and thus dedicating hours and days and weeks and years to attaining beauty standards that you have been conditioned to believe are your own. This is not where feminism wanted to lead us. But here we are.
Selling us empowerment through cheerleading for all of this is male domination with a potential dose of capitalism and is what the radical feminists fought against.