NHS bans transwomen from female space

First actual question is about discrimination against trans people. Surprising? No.

Really not sure what you are arguing here, but I suggest you don't use this line if you are ever trying to defend trans rights in a more formal setting.

Can we avoid dragging any more disabilities into this discussion? I actually am faceblind (mildly), as is my mother (much more so - she can only reliably identify her children and husband). Neither of us have any difficulty whatsoever telling men from women. We may even be better at it than average because we rely more on features like gait and voice to work out who's who.

Yes, so much emphasis is placed by some people on respecting people's chosen identity at all costs, but the respect doesn't extend to women who say that recognising that sex is real is fundamental to their identity.

The news coverage I have seen regarding this has been pretty balanced. Even the Guardian article quoted Maya Forstater and Bethany Hutchinson. It's quite a contrast to how the media reacted to the FWS ruling. It seems a lot has changed in 18 months.

People hate this on here but to me you would be who you say you are. It's not for me to tell other people their identity and it's not my business either.

Absolutely no issue at all with people wanting to be who they say they are, sorry if that blows a hole in your prejudices.

I have absolutely no problem with men identifying as women or fae or furries or anything else, I hope they have a lovely time, and I'm all for gender neutral additional spaces to let them express in peace. I absolutely believe in live and let live and self expression. AND I believe in single sex spaces for women on the basis of uncomplicated biology which cover 99.9% of the half of the female population, because those are needed for access and inclusion in our diverse world.

The two things can exist alongside each other. Unless of course your actual value under all the nice sounding stuff is actually that men should dominate women, and women's birthright is just to submit and obey. Which is interesting because it would suggest you don't think 'identity' in any way affects the reality of actual binary sex, and believe in sexism on the basis of it.

A man identifying as a demi femme boi elf is yes, none of my business and I'm not really very interested. If however he is going to invade women's single sex spaces and start affecting every woman there, his behaviour becomes very much my business and my interest at that point in his inner sense of his identity is absolutely zero because it's irrelevant. Not least because he's acting against women's legal protections and rights in law that exist precisely in order to prevent men behaving this badly towards women.

One of the posters above was asking about trans murder rates in the UK- happy to provide:
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=6182901

• you are more likely to be a murderer than murdered in you are trans in the UK.

There is a WRN report on NHS sex offences against women here:
www.womensrights.network/hospital-report

This website also helpful- mainly men who ID as trans offending (reflecting the sex based nature of these crimes does not reduce if men lie they are women) -with many sex offenders sadly:
https://transcrimeuk.com/

However, getting back to the NHS guidance- yes, it only covers England so wish Scotland and wales would sort themselves out and start protecting women!

Trans women as a group do not cause harm to cis women as a group. @totino

Except when they do. Violence at Women's rights events, rape and murder threats to women who state facts like "transwomen are men." Biological adult males are men. Many cases of TIMs raping children.

Women's spaces cease to be Women's spaces when men are included. Just because you disagree that biology matters, doesn't mean you are right. Males should never be in SSS for females. Not all women are as vulnerable as others, but as a sex class women are more vulnerable than men.

If a man in my family or friendship group had penile cancer and had to have his penis removed, I would be at pains to reassure him that he was still no less of a man.

Many of the people in prison have learning difficulties, are survivors of CSE and ACES, have very low literacy, are very young, very old, only guilty of white collar crimes, have serious mental health issues etc etc.

We should want to keep all vulnerable people in prisons safe and free from sexual violence. The way to do that is to make prisons safer, more therapeutic, less crowded and so on. The answer to male violence in prisons is not to select some and only some men to be put in with women!

Things can be authentic experiences without being material world correct

I can have a great dream - it’s a true experience
it’s relevance to the real world is negligible

someone can truly believe they are fat. It’s authentic . If they have anorexia it’s untrue. If they are overweight it is true. Both have the same authentic feeling. But we treat them differently

edit - becuase we are not a computer simulation ?

Indeed!

If so, we have a fantastic new answer for the parole board in reducing re offending rates.

Women's services such as rape crisis support, miscarriage and pregnancy support and Women's Aid. Phone support isn't a physical space.

It's not a workable category for any protected characteristic.

It is however a gift for Reform et al.

ETA: I think the deliberate policy to expand the trans umbrella to cover pretty much anyone has made it very difficult to argue for trans rights. However, that is not women's problem to solve.

@totino did you manage to lay your hands on this evidence?

There's only two options, either being trans is an authentic experience, or all trans people the world over are delusional or faking it.

This is not relevant because, whether or not trans people are authentic or faking it, they cannot change their sex, and sex is the relevant criteria in a single sex space.

And if it's authentic, the only issue remains whether being inclusive causes harm, and I'm not persuaded it does.

It is only lawful to exclude on the basis of sex in limited circumstances. You can argue over whether the standard has been met, but then the space might as well be mixed sex.

Ooh

"Who you say you are" isn't a workable category for the purposes of single-sex spaces. It's that simple.

This should be fun...🙄

Have they got lots of sad TIMs women lined up to tell us how sadly sad they are about this?

Get your bingo cards ready...

Going to be discussed on Woman's Hour this morning. Anita hosting, so I'm sure she's having to grit her teeth.

Now we need NHS Scotland and NHS Wales to get their arses in gear and update theirs.

Yes, this is what I shall be looking for (Wales).

Trans women as a group

And who is included and excluded from the people in the group 'trans women'?

The only thing they really seem to have in common with each other is being male.

I don't think male windsurfers 'as a group' cause particular harm to women, but there is no reason to treat them differently to other men.

You can't compare staff and patients because it is assumed that staff are vetted, trained and selected in a way that patients aren't.