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Original poster

"A Queer History of the United States for Young People" by Michael Bronski: people who don't fit into the molds society forces on them are queer

152 replies

YankSplaining · 13/10/2026 23:06

I'm an American in the US (see username), and I saw this book on display at the local public library. I figured I'd probably have some disagreements with it re: gender and transgender issues, but I was not expecting to find out that disguising yourself as a man, to go to war in 1781, made you "queer."

Deborah Sampson was a woman during the American Revolution who disguised herself as a man to go fight the British. She's one of those figures that lots of little girls find inspiring when they learn about the Revolutionary War in American schools. So, here's this book, talking about Deborah Sampson:

"When it came to gender and relationships, many of America's founding fathers and mothers behaved in ways that were outside the mainstream. As we've seen, gender and sexuality are not the same. After serving in the army as a man, Deborah Sampson married a man and had children and lived as a woman. There is no evidence that she had homosexual relationships.

"The terms we use for LGBTQ people did not exist back in 1781. If we had to choose a word to describe Deborah Sampson, we might choose 'queer.' This term is used today with pride as an umbrella term for anyone who does not fit into mainstream rules about sexuality or gender.

"Deborah Sampson never heard the word 'queer' used that way, nor did anyone else at the time. However, there is value in using it to describe her, because it helps us understand that throughout history there have been people who did not fit into the molds society tried to force them into. Deborah Sampson was one of those people, and in that sense, she was certainly queer."

Talk about trying to force someone into a mold! This is clearly a woman who considered herself a woman, but no, now she's got to be queer, because other women all fit into mainstream rules about sexuality or gender. Other women all fit into the molds society tries to force them into. You can be a female stereotype, or you can be queer. These are the rules, apparently.

I know American soldiers in the Revolution might not be high on the list of people whose historical reputations Mumsnetters care about, but this was the most likely-to-be-sympathetic forum I could think of in which to rant.

OP posts:
Shedmistress · 14/10/2026 12:24

Choppingwoodcarryingwater · 14/10/2026 12:18

Owwwww my brain hurtz…..

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Evidently.

Choppingwoodcarryingwater · 14/10/2026 12:18

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 14/10/2026 12:13

Yeah, bonkers and more bonkers the longer it goes on. It's like the internet has learned to post for itself.

Owwwww my brain hurtz…..

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 14/10/2026 12:13

Yeah, bonkers and more bonkers the longer it goes on. It's like the internet has learned to post for itself.

Choppingwoodcarryingwater · 14/10/2026 11:51

brownbootsandhats · 14/10/2026 11:20

Indeed although there was a time when it didn’t feel as bad as, when I thought things might slowly be changing for the better

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You'd be right. The civil rights & Feminist movements were able to shift laws which in turn shifted patterns. Equality enabled normalisation of different patterns. But not all patterns.

Newtons law of motion: an object in motion remains in motion at constant speed and in a straight line unless acted on by an unbalanced force.

Changing the pattern requires a force strong enough to change it.

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 14/10/2026 11:50

It could well be me but are some of these posts making less and less sense the longer this thread goes on? it's like random words have been selected and posted, along with a dollop of Teach Yourself Sociology in Five Easy Lessons.

Choppingwoodcarryingwater · 14/10/2026 11:44

sanluca · 14/10/2026 11:40

gender critical: stop with the boxes. Trans ideology: here’s a new box

Reality: Your box is set by the human condition.

lcakethereforeIam · 14/10/2026 11:41

This got me thinking that all female Doctors are queer as historically medicine was a field that was restricted to men. Then I thought arguably it could trace it back to the wise women healers so perhaps it's actually the blokes that are the queer ones.

sanluca · 14/10/2026 11:40

gender critical: stop with the boxes. Trans ideology: here’s a new box

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 14/10/2026 11:39

And sorry to confront you all with reality but she is queer by socially constructed standards.

Socially constructed standards that are the standards of the 21c being applied retrospectively to a woman dead over 200 years.

See, I can do bold too.

Choppingwoodcarryingwater · 14/10/2026 11:22

Imdunfer · 14/10/2026 10:23

... sorry to confront you all with reality but she is queer by socially constructed standards. She can reject that all she likes but it doesn't change the reality of social constructionism.

I accept there is a group of people who have a socially constructed standard by which she is, to them, "queer".

I do not accept that this is universally accepted, I don't even agree that it is the majority view.

By that definition any woman who behaves in a way which would be seen to be stereotypically male is "queer" and they most certainly are not.

The arrogance of thinking that someone can be labelled "queer" when that person does not themselves identify as queer would have been beyond belief, but it's become par for the course in the trans debate these days.

It's all about increasing the numbers to try to convince society that a small minority should have more power and influence than it does.

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I do not accept that this is universally accepted, I don't even agree that it is the majority view.

Wherever the pattern goes, so too does the majority view. Such is the law of pattern recognition. If it didn’t we wouldn't still be talking about sex stereotypes.

brownbootsandhats · 14/10/2026 11:20

Choppingwoodcarryingwater · 14/10/2026 11:19

We are back? 'We' in terms of social stereotyping never left.

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Indeed although there was a time when it didn’t feel as bad as, when I thought things might slowly be changing for the better

Choppingwoodcarryingwater · 14/10/2026 11:19

brownbootsandhats · 14/10/2026 10:28

Oh great we are back at if you don’t conform you are a weirdo but why not label houses as weird - queer - so we all know you know how weird you are

nice

We are back? 'We' in terms of social stereotyping never left.

Mumteedum · 14/10/2026 11:19

It's just queer theory bollocks. Anything out of the 'norm' is queer. I don't go along with it but it is just a humanities concept born of critical theorists isn't it ?

I work in a university. I get used to ignoring such tripe.

Choppingwoodcarryingwater · 14/10/2026 11:17

ThePM · 14/10/2026 09:20

“gendered categories are descriptivist not prescriptivist”. That really is a thought terminating cliche which means “we can change the goalposts for what counts as gender non-conforming at will”.

In any case I’m trying to find a way of making your post make sense in the context of this woman’s life.

All I can come up with is “Because she behaved in a way which through today’s lens of the past we can label GNC, I will retroactively attach that label to her.”
It begs the question can you do what she did and still be a woman? What if she wore a dress?

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It begs the question can you do what she did and still be a woman? What if she wore a dress?

Back then? She'd still be 'queer' which is an umbrella term euphemism for non conforming. Today no. Because patterns in terms of women in the work place have normalised as has feminine aesthetic. Presentation at the more 'butch' end of the spectrum a la Kathleen Stock/Judith Butler? Although it's more common it's a long way from the norm. So you do the social constructionism 'queer' math.

thirdfiddle · 14/10/2026 10:28

A woman being brave is quite the opposite of a man who refuses to respect women's boundaries. I am deeply suspicious of any theory that wants to put the same label on both of them.

brownbootsandhats · 14/10/2026 10:28

Oh great we are back at if you don’t conform you are a weirdo but why not label houses as weird - queer - so we all know you know how weird you are

nice

Imdunfer · 14/10/2026 10:23

Choppingwoodcarryingwater · 14/10/2026 09:15

I never said she did. And sorry to confront you all with reality but she is queer by socially constructed standards. She can reject that all she likes but it doesn't change the reality of social constructionism.

This isn't about what should be but what is. Do you understand the difference?

And I suspect it won't change because part of the human condition is to categorise patterns as a way of navigating the world. And typical behaviours create patterns that are used as reference points. So anything breaking the pattern gets its own category. This is how the human brain works so good luck with fighting the 'ridiculousness' of pattern recognition.

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... sorry to confront you all with reality but she is queer by socially constructed standards. She can reject that all she likes but it doesn't change the reality of social constructionism.

I accept there is a group of people who have a socially constructed standard by which she is, to them, "queer".

I do not accept that this is universally accepted, I don't even agree that it is the majority view.

By that definition any woman who behaves in a way which would be seen to be stereotypically male is "queer" and they most certainly are not.

The arrogance of thinking that someone can be labelled "queer" when that person does not themselves identify as queer would have been beyond belief, but it's become par for the course in the trans debate these days.

It's all about increasing the numbers to try to convince society that a small minority should have more power and influence than it does.

SwirlyGates · 14/10/2026 10:10

Well, who knew that Velvet Brown (National Velvet) was queer?

EmpressDomesticatednottamed · 14/10/2026 10:02

Right, well having been categorised as a witch when I was about 6 because I knew more than some boys I would like everyone to recognise all clever women
as witches.

That is naturally presuming that nobody has the ability to engage their consciousness and interrogate the imposition of categories, which seeing as women here reject the term cis and queer doesn't seem very likely.

People used to categorise some other peope by how good they were at sports and how they had such a marvellous sense of rhythm, but then we mostly stopped doing that as those people kind of objected and society began to recognise that it was important to listen to what they had to say.

Is it our squeaky voices again? Because for those having difficulty listening I do have access to a bat detector.

murasaki · 14/10/2026 09:51

Choppingwoodcarryingwater · 14/10/2026 08:50

No joke. Welcome to socially constructed gender categories, you know what gender critical feminism is supposed to be upset about.

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Surely if everyone is queer, no one is.

MarieDeGournay · 14/10/2026 09:48

Chopping Honestly, I really do think people like to invent grievances to perpetuate victim mentalities.

That's a real humdinger for my growing collection of 'mirroring', i.e. where words and phrases frequently used by sex-realists/GC feminists are turned around and used by TRAs and their allies.
They be accusing us of being 'Foucault-addled grievance gerbils' nextGrin

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 14/10/2026 09:36

Choppingwoodcarryingwater · 14/10/2026 09:22

The science begs to differ:

The Cognitive Mechanism Of Stereotypes

Detecting Statistical Regularities: Pattern recognition is a core component of human intelligence that helps people notice recurring traits, roles, or behaviours in their environment.
Categorization: When the brain identifies a cluster of traits shared by a group of people, it groups them into a single category.
Generalization: The brain then applies those observed patterns to every individual belonging to that group, turning a statistical trend into a rigid stereotype.

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So not going to give the word Critical in Gender Critical any thought whatsoever, you're just going to carry on thinking what you've been told to think.

ThePM · 14/10/2026 09:34

Choppingwoodcarryingwater · 14/10/2026 09:22

The science begs to differ:

The Cognitive Mechanism Of Stereotypes

Detecting Statistical Regularities: Pattern recognition is a core component of human intelligence that helps people notice recurring traits, roles, or behaviours in their environment.
Categorization: When the brain identifies a cluster of traits shared by a group of people, it groups them into a single category.
Generalization: The brain then applies those observed patterns to every individual belonging to that group, turning a statistical trend into a rigid stereotype.

Edited
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Is “Woman” a stereotype?

Choppingwoodcarryingwater · 14/10/2026 09:22

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 14/10/2026 09:18

Give some thought to what the world Critical in Gender Critical means, no joke.

There are no socially gender categories, only social expectations of the behaviours for each category. GC has been pushing back on those expectations, a girl can play with Lego and still be a girl, a boy can play with dolls and still be a boy. A girl/women can wear whatever they want, do whatever job they want, have whatever hobbies they want because there are no limitations to being a girl/women, there is no one way to be a girl/women, there is no one stereotypical girl/women.
Compare that to GI, that's all about typical behaviours for women, you can 'identify' in or out of a 'gender' unless there's a baseline for you to 'identify' with.

GC says there is no one way to be a woman, GI insists there is.

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The science begs to differ:

The Cognitive Mechanism Of Stereotypes

Detecting Statistical Regularities: Pattern recognition is a core component of human intelligence that helps people notice recurring traits, roles, or behaviours in their environment.
Categorization: When the brain identifies a cluster of traits shared by a group of people, it groups them into a single category.
Generalization: The brain then applies those observed patterns to every individual belonging to that group, turning a statistical trend into a rigid stereotype.