Teacher upset with my child questioning about trans child

A child might want to use pronouns that feel more comfortable, or that allow them to express themselves in a way that feels authentic.

While we're on the subject of incoherent waffle...

My use of 'he' or 'she' for a child is a way I express myself, and has no bearing on how that child expresses himself or herself. Unless that child talks about himself or herself in the third person. Which would be weird.

Unless that child talks about himself or herself in the third person. Which would be weird.

Especially for a four or five-year old. They are still learning language at that age. Surely few would have any conception of the difference between 'she' and 'her', for example?

Quite a fair few adults have problems with that distinction, too.

But the point stands: the pronouns I use to refer to you are not your self-expression, they're mine.

A child might want to use pronouns that feel more comfortable, or that allow them to express themselves in a way that feels authentic.

Pronouns are one of the most boring things ever - they're just a mundane part of grammar, which people learn to use appropriately from a young age. They're as boring as, say, prepositions - nobody finds it exciting to say that the cat is under the table and the cake is on the table, and not the other way around; but it's just standard communication that helps us to convey facts to other people who speak the same language.

There are so many great toys, games, sports, books, exciting activities and fun places to visit out there - I would be very sad for a child who had been given such an unstimulating, non-child-centred, tedious upbringing that they are actually looking towards playing with something as dull as a basic function of grammar to make themselves feel comfortable and more authentic.

Where did I get that idea?

From this:

What do you think is behind a request (by the child or their parents) for a change of pronouns?
If their intention is not to lie to the other children about the child's biological sex, what is the purpose of a change of pronouns.

it's just a mundane part of grammar

Well quite. Now point that logic inward and have a little think.

OP, your child is healthy and sane and not easily taken in by obvious lies. Those are excellent qualities, and no one should be trying to force her to deny the evidence of her own eyes and senses.

But I realise you and she are in a difficult position, as long as the transgender industry continues to influence schools. The tide seems to be turning, but it takes time.

I would gently encourage her not to ask questions about the other child. And I’d complain to the school about inappropriate books.

Surely you understand that how you refer to another person can affect how they feel? The fact that you’re the one using the pronouns doesn’t mean they’re not important to the person you’re referring to.

I think the point is that when I request special pronouns, they're just a mundane part of grammar. When you use regular pronouns for me, I'm being genocided.

It's another asymmetry inherent in transthought. I'll add it to the list.

Nobody doubts that using male pronouns for a female child claiming to be male is going to upset the child. That upset doesn't make it appropriate to affirm the fantasy.

What's incoherent is your claim that the words I use are someone else's self-expression. They're my expression. Nobody else's.

Unless you've been asleep for the past decade or so (perhaps in a castle surrounded by a briar hedge), you will be well aware that gender- based pronouns, specifically, are far more than a part of speech.

He becomes "she", and suddenly this oh so trivial and harmless little gender - based pronoun is supposed to give entree to everything for the female sex.

The intentions of an individual parent may or may not go as far as that. Unfortunately, we've now seen where this supposedly innocent courtesy has taken us. So, sorry, but "it's just a part of speech" won't wash any more.

Surely you understand that coercing someone to refer to another person in a certain way can affect how the speaker feels? The fact that you’re the one hearing the pronouns doesn’t mean they’re not important to the person who is speaking, who is trying to express themself in a way which feels authentic and comfortable for them.

Why shouldn't other people be able to express themselves in a way which makes them feel comfortable? Why is feeling 'comfortable' and 'authentic' only for trans identified people and not for everyone else?

But you don’t use pronouns about someone in front of them. Unless you were dragged up by wolves, ,so how would it affect them?

Of course you do, especially in school.
'Miss - Lily just kicked me and then she said I was a cry baby'

It would be terribly confusing to children to tell them to use wrong pronouns

But there’s a fundamental difference here. One person is asking others to respect how they wish to be referred to — the words used to describe their very person. The other is insisting on referring to that person in a way they don’t want.

You’re bizarrely framing the first as coercion, while ignoring that the second involves imposing your own preferences about language on someone else!

And just above you, another poster suggests that when a trans person cares about the pronouns used to refer to them, it’s completely trivial — just a mundane matter of grammar. But when she cares about the pronouns used to refer to someone else, it’s apparently tantamount to genocide against her! 😂

The extraordinary inversion of who’s imposing on whom, and your apparent inability to recognise it, is quite astounding

imposing your own preferences about language

Outside of the trans situation I am struggling to think of any occasion where people are told to use incorrect language, especially in a school where the whole aim is to get them to understand language.

Words have meanings. The T lobby seems to want to unilaterally change the meanings of key words such as woman.

Who gets to decide what constitutes ‘correct’ language? Language is a set of shared conventions, not a collection of immutable facts. Those conventions change all the time. There are plenty of examples of people being expected to respect how others wish to be described, eg in relation to race, ethnicity and disability. Are you seriously suggesting that using an established term automatically makes it appropriate, regardless of how the person being described feels about it?

Pronoun meanings and the word 'woman' are core language.
One group can't just redefine them unilaterally.

If language doesn't have a commonly understood meaning then it is pointless. The whole point of language is to communicate.

Yes teens invent their own meanings (see 'Cool' etc), but any sensible teen would not then try to use 'teenspeak' in a situation where they needed to be understood properly.

Other words change meaning over time, usually due to misuse (enormity springs to mind).

T people could invent their own words to describe themselves (which broadly is what happens with disability). That is very different from changing the meaning of core words to something completely contradictory.

It’s perfectly possible for language to accommodate minority differences and diversity without fundamentally changing the meaning of words. Life is complex, and language is flexible enough to reflect that complexity. The idea that we must rigidly impose one particular usage of a word in every conceivable context, regardless of the circumstances, or else its entire meaning will somehow collapse, is both irrational and remarkably fundamentalist in its logic.

Pure nonsense.

without fundamentally changing the meaning of words

female = sex that is designed to produce large gametes (or something)

woman = adult human female. Cannot therefore include men.

she/her = pronouns when referring to a female

You can't use them for males without fundamentally changing the meaning

Glad we got that sorted.

Says the Ministry of Truth

I’m sure people have already said this in the many pages of previous comments, but it bears repeating:

The parents who are trying to trans the child are abusers.

The teacher who is going along with it is abusing the child too. And she’s abusing all the other children in the class.

I’m not sure how you persuade the teacher that destroying reality for little kids is abuse, but I think it’s important that both teacher and head are at least exposed to the idea that they are complicit in the abuse of children.

They should also be encouraged to grapple with the full implications for the kid they are transing and what that means physically and mentally for him.

If education professionals want to stand behind child abuse, at least they should be required to do it on the record.

The government have seen the potential for abuse and have now placed the welfare of gender confused children in the statutory safeguarding guidance (KCSIE - it's linked above at 15.10.26, 12.08.). This lays out very limited circumstances where a school should be involved in socially transitioning a child and tells primary schools to "exercise particular caution".

Transactivists are trying very hard to undermine this as it stops their access to children too young to intellectually evaluate this adult belief. Hence the protesting and derailing of this thread.

However, parents are now in a better position to protect their children and there shouldn't be any more gaslighting of children in schools from activist adults or groups if schools follow the guidance.