Oxford City Council trans rights plan approved amid 'intimidation'

I live in Oxfordshire and go into to Oxford every week. To boost my credentials, I am also a mum and a die hard radical feminist, who cares passionately about a whole range of typically “progressive” issues. My two young sons who fully understand that they are male even if they are wearing a dress can hopefully attest to my comfort with gender non conformity. And I am very much not happy about sharing communal spaces with men not matter how they dress. I wasn’t when I was at university when it was quietly being introduced without scrutiny, and am especially not now, after “educated myself”.

Why do you want to make men ‘welcome’ in women’s spaces, regardless of the needs of the women in those spaces? Why can’t we make men welcome in men’s spaces?

And I am very much not happy about sharing communal spaces with men not matter how they dress.

Respectfully, I suggest you might want to reword that, @MusselTryHarder . Unless you really do mean that you're not happy to share communal spaces with men: Sainbury's? The Westgate library? Restaurants? Cornmarket Street? In the UK, communal spaces are open to everyone. Not sharing communal spaces with men would mean setting up a regime like the Taliban.

Of course I know you mean only CERTAIN communal spaces, but that's the whole tricky bit really. Which spaces do you want to segregate, and how would you police it? Would you perform genitalia checks at the door?

To me, that's the absurdity of trans-exclusionary feminism.

To me, not grasping or having basic human empathy that most women need privacy and dignity while they are specifically vulnerable is what is absurd. Different strokes, eh?

Let’s take a wild guess at this @oxfordfeminist

How about places where you are vulnerable because you will be in a state of undress, like toilets and changing rooms?

That was easy, right?

As for how it’s policed, until the current madness it was policed well. Good men stay out so bad men stand out. We uphold the social contract and we all know that men aren’t supposed to be in spaces where women don’t consent for them to be.

Men do the decent thing and obey the law.

Not really sure what you imagine the purpose of a “women’s changing room” is? Here’s a hint, it isn’t a validation chamber for men who don’t respect women’s boundaries or consent.

Nobody has ever performed genital checks.

That's the absurdity of Gender Addled Grievance Gerbilism.

Why can't men just use the men's single sex facilities?

It is quite funny how quickly the average genderist will get to “genital checks”. It’s quite the trope in Genderlandia, isn’t it?

It is quite telling though that they know the penis people should be the ones kept out.

Which is transphobic.

Also the idea that if you can’t completely “police” something, you should give up and it should be a free for all.

I see that we have another trans inclusive feminist in our midst. It's as credible as a vegetarian who makes an exception for fillet steak because of the similarity with a large cube of beetroot.

It suggests a certain cohort of people cannot be trusted to do the right thing or think of others.

Which is also transphobic.

It is, isn’t it?

So in your embracing of mixed sex feminism, how do you manage the inclusion and access part of women who are unable to undress in mixed sex spaces?

Many who are survivors of VAWG, CSA, disabilities, belong to minority cultures and faiths, etc? I mean obviously as a person concerned with inclusion and open mindedness you've not just abandoned them in your feminism while pivoting to concern over the needs of men?

Smug middle-class Oxford residents (probably academics) wanging on about ‘trans rights’ while the city is home to some of the worst child poverty in the country isn’t really news. There’s a reason most of the poorer residents can’t abide anything the university stands for.

Oxford attracts many thousands, if not millions, of tourists and visitors every year from all over the world. Many of these visitors are female and many will come from countries where they have never heard of the concept of gender identity. I think that all female visitors to Oxford, wherever they come from, should be able go to the toilet/ get changed in a female only space where they feel safe.

Very good point.

Anyone calling themselves a feminist while abandoning large groups of less privileged women and excluding them from women's spaces solely to meet the needs of men, is kidding themselves really.

I find it quite entertaining that after all the years of fretting and trying to get rid of the image of being out of touch ivory tower elite, transactivism has given that privileged group a whole new classist elitism to embrace and they've all dashed in and locked the door.

My rights are not yours to give away.
'Live and let live' - as long as its things you agree with

Oxford in a nutshell, falling over itself to be 'inclusive' yet excluding those who have valid evidence for a different view of society.

Why are all TRA obsessed with genitals? Is it a bug or a feature? …..

Coming back to Councillor Morris and Oxford City Council, impending local government reorganisation is likely to mean that Oxford City Council will be reorganised out of existence, potentially along with Cllr Morris’s seat. Which will mean that they he will have more time to spend on his research into subjects like 'Bareback Sex in the Age of Preventative Medication: Rethinking the ‘Harms’ of HIV Transmission'

And the way it is presented as a devastatingly winning argument which nobody has ever heard before.

He has a doctorate for 'studying' such meaningless, unnecessary, codswallop. Mao was right, send them all out to the fields, they can spend their working life weeding the countryside, that would be them being productive at least.

We are not allowed to comment on this potential phenomenon, for fear of being whacked with the deletion stick.

You're right, communal was definitely not the right word. The Saturday morning rush is a tricky time to write up a reply on MN. My point is, oxfordfeminist, that you don't speak for all the women in your area. The people objecting on this thread, may well not live near Oxford, but I do, and I don't consent to having my right to single sex spaces overridden by some paternalistic movement telling me it's all in the name of inclusion. There are many women who are fully abreast of the issue, are very well-informed, and have reached polar opposite conclusions to you. But in an effort to be inclusive, you are telling these women who disagree with you that their views are "weird". Or that we're old reactionary bigots who simply haven't bothered to be as cosmopolitan as you and get some trans friends. Have you never considered that perhaps some of us are your contemporaries, well-educated and well-informed gender non-conforming feminists and progressives who have been affected by these policies for over a decade? Has it ever occurred to you that rather than breezily dismiss the views of women in your local area with thinly veiled contempt, that you might try to understand why it is that women and girls may want and need single sex spaces in an effort to build a path forward? Or is it just easier (or more fun) to paint mumsnetters and other GC feminists as genital fetishists? Weirdos with beliefs unworthy of respect in a democratic society?

Well said.

Those women who wish to share mixed spaces with men are wholly free to do so in the additional gender neutral spaces to be provided via the EHRC guidance.

They merely need to tolerate the existence of single sex provision that is a necessity for many women for accessibility and inclusion.

Just tolerate. That's all. Just permit other women to have access too.

One wonders why this is such an enormous challenge.