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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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OldCrone · 31/07/2026 20:37

Sunnibee · 31/07/2026 19:55

Yes for some young people with persistent gender dysphoria, undergoing endogenous puberty may itself carry a risk of significant psychological harm- and those harms may be long term as many of the effects of puberty are irreversible. That isn’t a claim invented in 2026—it’s one of the central reasons puberty blockers were proposed in the first place.

simply dismissing the possibility that endogenous puberty can be profoundly distressing for some adolescents as “TRA gubbins” doesn't really contribute to a meaningful debate.

If your position is that every child should undergo endogenous puberty regardless of how severe or persistent their distress is, then explain why you think the harms of that approach are outweighed by the risks

That isn’t a claim invented in 2026—it’s one of the central reasons puberty blockers were proposed in the first place.

Yes, it was because some Dutch psychologists dealing with adult male transsexuals hypothesised that their continuing poor mental health, even after transition, was due to the fact that they didn't 'pass' due to having been through male puberty.

Let's not forget where this batshit idea came from.

And it is totally irrelevant for girls.

Thanks for reminding us all @Sunnibee .

BonfireLady · 31/07/2026 20:35

Sunnibee · 31/07/2026 20:27

Oestrogen will bind to the hormone receptors in the body regardless of XY karyotype and induce the development of secondary sex characteristics, as well as changes necessary for bone health and brain development, etc.

Edited

Nobody knows if what's necessary for brain development can be delivered in this way, if someone's puberty was stopped by puberty blockers before they went onto cross-sex hormones.

Just as with puberty blockers, there is no reliable medical evidence that says cross-sex hormones will lead to healthy brain development.

OldCrone · 31/07/2026 20:33

Sunnibee · 31/07/2026 19:55

Yes for some young people with persistent gender dysphoria, undergoing endogenous puberty may itself carry a risk of significant psychological harm- and those harms may be long term as many of the effects of puberty are irreversible. That isn’t a claim invented in 2026—it’s one of the central reasons puberty blockers were proposed in the first place.

simply dismissing the possibility that endogenous puberty can be profoundly distressing for some adolescents as “TRA gubbins” doesn't really contribute to a meaningful debate.

If your position is that every child should undergo endogenous puberty regardless of how severe or persistent their distress is, then explain why you think the harms of that approach are outweighed by the risks

many of the effects of puberty are irreversible

Since the majority of these children are girls, what effects of female puberty are you referring to here?

BackToLurk · 31/07/2026 20:33

Sunnibee · 31/07/2026 20:01

That’s a false analogy.

If a parent dies, there is no intervention that can bring them back. Acceptance is the only option because there is no other.

Going through endogenous puberty is completely different. We do have interventions that can alter or delay it. Whether those interventions should be used, and in whom, is exactly what’s being debated. Those interventions won't cause the child to grow new reproductive organs- that is a reality the child has to accept. but those interventions can prevent the development of secondary sex characteristics associated with birth sex , and induce those of the child's experienced sex. That can significantly alleviate a young persons distress (and can realise better outcomes and potentially less invasive interventions down the line for those for who want to pursue transition).

So your comparison is completely circular. You’re treating acceptance as the only possible response by ignoring the very existence of the medical interventions under discussion. The debate is whether those interventions are justified—not whether they exist.

Edited

We do have interventions that can alter or delay it

This type of language is why I contend you are trying to have it both ways. There is no alter or delay. There is effectively only alter. The route is essentially sealed at the point at which the child is prescribed PBs. Because, you claim, clinicians are so effective at identifying those prepubescent children whose distress will only be alleviated by lifelong medicalisation.

Sunnibee · 31/07/2026 20:27

OldCrone · 31/07/2026 20:22

In what way is a boy (male child) receiving the hormones necessary for pubertal developmental if his natural puberty is blocked and he's given oestrogen?

Oestrogen will bind to the hormone receptors in the body regardless of XY karyotype and induce the development of secondary sex characteristics, as well as changes necessary for bone health and brain development, etc.

Sunnibee · 31/07/2026 20:24

BettyBooper · 31/07/2026 20:18

Transition is not possible because humans can't change sex.

This is just a semantic and rhetorical claim- it's meaningless .

People can undergo a range of physical and social interventions to alter aspects of their physiology and social identity in ways that can reduce distress associated with gender dysphoria. That is what we are speaking of- whatever words we use to describe it.

OldCrone · 31/07/2026 20:22

Sunnibee · 31/07/2026 19:06

blockers combined with oestrogen is not the issue, because the body is still receiving the hormones necessary for pubertal developmental. The concern is blockers without any other hormonal intervention.
surgeries can wait .

In what way is a boy (male child) receiving the hormones necessary for pubertal developmental if his natural puberty is blocked and he's given oestrogen?

Sunnibee · 31/07/2026 20:21

OldCrone · 31/07/2026 20:16

There are almost always multiple possible explanations for the same thing.

I agree. So the fact that almost all the children taking puberty blockers progressed to opposite sex hormones could be explained by a number of reasons. You believe that it's because the doctors somehow managed to select only the children who would persist in their cross-sex identity to be given puberty blockers. I suggested that it could be because puberty is often the 'cure' for gender dysphoria (this is well documented), so stopping puberty could cause the children to persist. These are both possible explanations for the observed result.

In scientific medical terms, this is usually thought of in the terms of 'this piece of evidence is consistent with the hypothesis that..." rather than saying its the only possible hypothesis.

What you call 'evidence' here seems to be the observed result, so yes, the observed result could due to either of the causes described above. Or even something else entirely.

But the observed result is not evidence that either of these causes are the true cause for the observed result.

You believe that it's because the doctors somehow managed to select only the children who would persist in their cross-sex identity to be given puberty blockers

you make it sound like this is some sort of random selection process. But it's only the absolutely most insistent, persistent and consistent children who ever had access to these interventions - and then only after extensive "exploration and assessment". As per the data from GIDS I shared earlier, we're speaking of just 6-7% of the cohort of children referred into the service. So it's not at all surprising that these children would be those in most acute need and most likely to also want CSH,

BettyBooper · 31/07/2026 20:18

Sunnibee · 31/07/2026 20:01

That’s a false analogy.

If a parent dies, there is no intervention that can bring them back. Acceptance is the only option because there is no other.

Going through endogenous puberty is completely different. We do have interventions that can alter or delay it. Whether those interventions should be used, and in whom, is exactly what’s being debated. Those interventions won't cause the child to grow new reproductive organs- that is a reality the child has to accept. but those interventions can prevent the development of secondary sex characteristics associated with birth sex , and induce those of the child's experienced sex. That can significantly alleviate a young persons distress (and can realise better outcomes and potentially less invasive interventions down the line for those for who want to pursue transition).

So your comparison is completely circular. You’re treating acceptance as the only possible response by ignoring the very existence of the medical interventions under discussion. The debate is whether those interventions are justified—not whether they exist.

Edited

Transition is not possible because humans can't change sex.

Sunnibee · 31/07/2026 20:17

BonfireLady · 31/07/2026 20:11

I think that all sounds very fair.

The only thing I would question though is whether anyone really says "you need to accept your body" to a child who is distressed about their body.

Acceptance can never be forced or demanded.

I'm someone who believes that no medical intervention is ever justified for a child with gender dysphoria. I believe that acknowledging their distress and helping them to live with it as the passage of time slowly lessens it is the support that they need. I'm not suggesting it would be easy but it's important for their physical health and overall mental health that they find a way through this distress with their body intact and free from the known and unknown risks of PBs or CSHs.

My threshold for medical intervention being potentially justified is after someone is past the age of 25, when their brain has fully completed its development through adolescence.

I would rather there was no such thing as medical interventions for any age, but if someone is over 25 and every other avenue has been explored both neutrally and fully, perhaps medical intervention is the only way forward. If an adult does take this path I would hope that they truly feel happy that they did so for the rest of their life and that they don't suffer too many medical complications (there will always be some complications resulting from cross-sex hormones being taken). I would also hope that they fully understand that they haven't changed sex - if they don't understand this, they have not had neutral support - and that they follow the law on single-sex sports, services and spaces.

Edited

That’s fair. I don’t agree with you on the balance of risks and harms, because I think that for a small minority of people it will lead to significant, unnecessary suffering and worse long-term outcomes. But that’s ultimately a matter of judgement, and I can totally understand how you arrived at your position.

OldCrone · 31/07/2026 20:16

Sunnibee · 31/07/2026 18:04

That doesn't follow, there doesn't have to just be one explanation for a piece of evidence for it to be regarded as evidence. There are almost always multiple possible explanations for the same thing. In scientific medical terms, this is usually thought of in the terms of 'this piece of evidence is consistent with the hypothesis that..." rather than saying its the only possible hypothesis.

There are almost always multiple possible explanations for the same thing.

I agree. So the fact that almost all the children taking puberty blockers progressed to opposite sex hormones could be explained by a number of reasons. You believe that it's because the doctors somehow managed to select only the children who would persist in their cross-sex identity to be given puberty blockers. I suggested that it could be because puberty is often the 'cure' for gender dysphoria (this is well documented), so stopping puberty could cause the children to persist. These are both possible explanations for the observed result.

In scientific medical terms, this is usually thought of in the terms of 'this piece of evidence is consistent with the hypothesis that..." rather than saying its the only possible hypothesis.

What you call 'evidence' here seems to be the observed result, so yes, the observed result could due to either of the causes described above. Or even something else entirely.

But the observed result is not evidence that either of these causes are the true cause for the observed result.

BettyBooper · 31/07/2026 20:15

Sunnibee · 31/07/2026 20:10

That’s not quite right. The Dutch protocol wasn’t simply about helping adults “pass.” It was explicitly designed for adolescents experiencing severe gender dysphoria, with puberty suppression intended both to alleviate distress associated with developing unwanted secondary sex characteristics and to facilitate any later transition in carefully selected cases. Those two rationales weren’t mutually exclusive

And where did the idea of using PB come from?

Seethlaw · 31/07/2026 20:14

A reminder of some of the sources of distress that appear when a child is made to transition:

  • the distress of dealing with those people in their family and friend circle who are uncomfortable with their transition;
  • the distress, for the rest of their life, of never knowing if they're passing or if people are only pretending to humour them;
  • the distress of handling a far more complicated dating life;
  • the distress of dealing with infertility;
  • the distress of repeatedly, for the rest of their life, dealing with situations where their birth sex is relevant;
  • the distress of suffering from life-long medical side effects;
  • the stress of handling a life-long medical treatment;
  • the distress of knowing that, despite everything they've gone through, gender dysphoria will be never entirely be a thing of the past.

That is what those people are asking children to assess whether it's worth it.

BonfireLady · 31/07/2026 20:11

Sunnibee · 31/07/2026 19:44

The way to lower that risk may well be to help a child come to terms with their developing body where possible. But what if that doesn’t work?

What if the child says, “I’ve tried. I understand everything you’re telling me. I know my body is functioning normally, but none of that reduces my suffering. I can intellectually accept what’s happening, but emotionally I’m still in profound distress.”

What then?

At that point, simply repeating “you need to accept your body” isn’t a treatment—it’s just restating the goal. The real clinical question is what should be done when acceptance-based approaches fail. If someone believes no medical intervention is ever justified, they need to explain what they think should happen to those patients whose suffering persists despite genuine attempts at psychological support and acceptance

I think that all sounds very fair.

The only thing I would question though is whether anyone really says "you need to accept your body" to a child who is distressed about their body.

Acceptance can never be forced or demanded.

I'm someone who believes that no medical intervention is ever justified for a child with gender dysphoria. I believe that acknowledging their distress and helping them to live with it as the passage of time slowly lessens it is the support that they need. I'm not suggesting it would be easy but it's important for their physical health and overall mental health that they find a way through this distress with their body intact and free from the known and unknown risks of PBs or CSHs.

My threshold for medical intervention being potentially justified is after someone is past the age of 25, when their brain has fully completed its development through adolescence.

I would rather there was no such thing as medical interventions for any age, but if someone is over 25 and every other avenue has been explored both neutrally and fully, perhaps medical intervention is the only way forward. If an adult does take this path I would hope that they truly feel happy that they did so for the rest of their life and that they don't suffer too many medical complications (there will always be some complications resulting from cross-sex hormones being taken). I would also hope that they fully understand that they haven't changed sex - if they don't understand this, they have not had neutral support - and that they follow the law on single-sex sports, services and spaces.

Sunnibee · 31/07/2026 20:10

BettyBooper · 31/07/2026 20:07

No, PBs came out of the Dutch protocol as a suggested method that adult men might pass better. Nothing whatsoever to do with childhood distress.

That’s not quite right. The Dutch protocol wasn’t simply about helping adults “pass.” It was explicitly designed for adolescents experiencing severe gender dysphoria, with puberty suppression intended both to alleviate distress associated with developing unwanted secondary sex characteristics and to facilitate any later transition in carefully selected cases. Those two rationales weren’t mutually exclusive

BettyBooper · 31/07/2026 20:07

Sunnibee · 31/07/2026 19:55

Yes for some young people with persistent gender dysphoria, undergoing endogenous puberty may itself carry a risk of significant psychological harm- and those harms may be long term as many of the effects of puberty are irreversible. That isn’t a claim invented in 2026—it’s one of the central reasons puberty blockers were proposed in the first place.

simply dismissing the possibility that endogenous puberty can be profoundly distressing for some adolescents as “TRA gubbins” doesn't really contribute to a meaningful debate.

If your position is that every child should undergo endogenous puberty regardless of how severe or persistent their distress is, then explain why you think the harms of that approach are outweighed by the risks

No, PBs came out of the Dutch protocol as a suggested method that adult men might pass better. Nothing whatsoever to do with childhood distress.

Sunnibee · 31/07/2026 20:01

BettyBooper · 31/07/2026 19:52

What if a child's parent dies and they are understandably distressed? You can't bring the parent back to life. The child has to sadly deal with reality. You work through it with understanding, but you don't pretend the parent hasn't died.

A child changing sex is as impossible as bringing someone back to life.

Trying to bend reality to stop children feeling distressed about reality is absurd.

That’s a false analogy.

If a parent dies, there is no intervention that can bring them back. Acceptance is the only option because there is no other.

Going through endogenous puberty is completely different. We do have interventions that can alter or delay it. Whether those interventions should be used, and in whom, is exactly what’s being debated. Those interventions won't cause the child to grow new reproductive organs- that is a reality the child has to accept. but those interventions can prevent the development of secondary sex characteristics associated with birth sex , and induce those of the child's experienced sex. That can significantly alleviate a young persons distress (and can realise better outcomes and potentially less invasive interventions down the line for those for who want to pursue transition).

So your comparison is completely circular. You’re treating acceptance as the only possible response by ignoring the very existence of the medical interventions under discussion. The debate is whether those interventions are justified—not whether they exist.

Seethlaw · 31/07/2026 19:56

All I'm seeing here is:

If a child says they're trans, it's okay to experiment on them and sterilise them.

I can't believe that there are people who don't see what's evil about this.

Sunnibee · 31/07/2026 19:55

BettyBooper · 31/07/2026 19:48

weigh the potential harm of being required to undergo the irreversible changes of natal puberty—, which for some, may result in profound and long-lasting psychological suffering—

No. This is ridiculous. You have no basis for this claim.

Suddenly, in 2026, we need to prevent puberty in children because it 'may result in profound and long-standing psychological suffering'?

This is absolute nonsense. Complete TRA gubbins.

Yes for some young people with persistent gender dysphoria, undergoing endogenous puberty may itself carry a risk of significant psychological harm- and those harms may be long term as many of the effects of puberty are irreversible. That isn’t a claim invented in 2026—it’s one of the central reasons puberty blockers were proposed in the first place.

simply dismissing the possibility that endogenous puberty can be profoundly distressing for some adolescents as “TRA gubbins” doesn't really contribute to a meaningful debate.

If your position is that every child should undergo endogenous puberty regardless of how severe or persistent their distress is, then explain why you think the harms of that approach are outweighed by the risks

BettyBooper · 31/07/2026 19:52

Sunnibee · 31/07/2026 19:44

The way to lower that risk may well be to help a child come to terms with their developing body where possible. But what if that doesn’t work?

What if the child says, “I’ve tried. I understand everything you’re telling me. I know my body is functioning normally, but none of that reduces my suffering. I can intellectually accept what’s happening, but emotionally I’m still in profound distress.”

What then?

At that point, simply repeating “you need to accept your body” isn’t a treatment—it’s just restating the goal. The real clinical question is what should be done when acceptance-based approaches fail. If someone believes no medical intervention is ever justified, they need to explain what they think should happen to those patients whose suffering persists despite genuine attempts at psychological support and acceptance

What if a child's parent dies and they are understandably distressed? You can't bring the parent back to life. The child has to sadly deal with reality. You work through it with understanding, but you don't pretend the parent hasn't died.

A child changing sex is as impossible as bringing someone back to life.

Trying to bend reality to stop children feeling distressed about reality is absurd.

BettyBooper · 31/07/2026 19:48

Sunnibee · 31/07/2026 19:20

This shouldn’t surprise anyone. I don’t think anyone would argue that medical interventions—whether surgery or hormonal treatment—always produce outcomes that are preferable to allowing natural physiological processes to occur. The real question is not whether intervention has disadvantages, but how those disadvantages compare with the consequences of not intervening. Clinical decisions are made by weighing the likely overall benefits and harms of each option in the context of the individual patient’s condition.

In the case of CAIS, for example, clinicians balance the risk of cancer against the benefits of retaining the testes to produce natural hormones for as long as appropriate.
Similarly, for children with gender dysphoria, the question is how to weigh the potential harm of being required to undergo the irreversible changes of natal puberty—which, for some, may result in profound and long-lasting psychological suffering—against the risks and harms of medical intervention, such as infertility and other potential long-term consequences. The ethical question is about balancing competing risks, not comparing a risky intervention with a risk-free alternative.

meant to quote @AimsAndObjectives post above

Edited

weigh the potential harm of being required to undergo the irreversible changes of natal puberty—, which for some, may result in profound and long-lasting psychological suffering—

No. This is ridiculous. You have no basis for this claim.

Suddenly, in 2026, we need to prevent puberty in children because it 'may result in profound and long-standing psychological suffering'?

This is absolute nonsense. Complete TRA gubbins.

Sunnibee · 31/07/2026 19:44

BonfireLady · 31/07/2026 19:34

Similarly, for children with gender dysphoria, the question is how to weigh the potential harm of being required to undergo the irreversible changes of natal puberty—which, for some, may result in profound and long-lasting psychological suffering—against the risks and harms of medical intervention, such as infertility and other potential long-term consequences. The ethical question is about balancing competing risks, not comparing a risky intervention with a risk-free alternative.

The word "natal" when describing puberty is superfluous and gives the misleading impression that an alternative puberty is available instead. Additionally, there is no potential harm associated with going through puberty. It's a natural process and doesn't bring harm to anyone going through it.

However, I agree that it's not risk-free if a child suffers profound and long-lasting psychological suffering when going through puberty. The way to lower that risk is to carefully help the child to accept that their body is doing what it's designed to do.

The way to make that suffering and risk worse is to let the child believe that the only thing that will keep them safe is transition, and that anyone who challenges that view is harmful to them. That's where the potential for harm comes in.

Edited for clarity

Edited

The way to lower that risk may well be to help a child come to terms with their developing body where possible. But what if that doesn’t work?

What if the child says, “I’ve tried. I understand everything you’re telling me. I know my body is functioning normally, but none of that reduces my suffering. I can intellectually accept what’s happening, but emotionally I’m still in profound distress.”

What then?

At that point, simply repeating “you need to accept your body” isn’t a treatment—it’s just restating the goal. The real clinical question is what should be done when acceptance-based approaches fail. If someone believes no medical intervention is ever justified, they need to explain what they think should happen to those patients whose suffering persists despite genuine attempts at psychological support and acceptance

Fidgetbreak · 31/07/2026 19:40

Sunnibee · 31/07/2026 19:03

There is nothing inherently more "experimental" about intervening than not intervening when a child has a medical condition causing significant distress. Choosing not to provide a particular treatment is still a clinical decision with consequences, not a neutral default. If the natural course of the condition is uncertain, or if delaying treatment may itself alter long-term outcomes, then both action and inaction involve uncertainty and risk.
The important question is for this child , in this circumstance, and given the available evidence which is the best balance of benefits versus harms.

Did you honestly think the usage of the word 'experiment' was the most significant content in my post?

If you'd rather not engage with the tougher talking points it would be preferable if you simply ignore them, as you did my earlier post, rather than do this dance.

edit typo

BonfireLady · 31/07/2026 19:34

Similarly, for children with gender dysphoria, the question is how to weigh the potential harm of being required to undergo the irreversible changes of natal puberty—which, for some, may result in profound and long-lasting psychological suffering—against the risks and harms of medical intervention, such as infertility and other potential long-term consequences. The ethical question is about balancing competing risks, not comparing a risky intervention with a risk-free alternative.

The word "natal" when describing puberty is superfluous and gives the misleading impression that an alternative puberty is available instead. Additionally, there is no potential harm associated with going through puberty. It's a natural process and doesn't bring harm to anyone going through it.

However, I agree that it's not risk-free if a child suffers profound and long-lasting psychological suffering when going through puberty. The way to lower that risk is to carefully help the child to accept that their body is doing what it's designed to do.

The way to make that suffering and risk worse is to let the child believe that the only thing that will keep them safe is transition, and that anyone who challenges that view is harmful to them. That's where the potential for harm comes in.

Edited for clarity

AimsAndObjectives · 31/07/2026 19:28

yada—yada—yada—