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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another victory! For Women Scotland v Scottish Ministers in prisons case

240 replies

TheNoWord · 19/06/2026 12:04

It’s just been on the news in Scotland. More to follow….

OP posts:
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EasternStandard · 19/06/2026 18:05

This is great. What on earth are the SNP thinking that men need to be with women.

ArabellaScott · 19/06/2026 18:01

GailBlancheViola · 19/06/2026 17:16

Or place them with the other TW prisoners on a dedicated wing within the male estate, there seem to be quite enough TW to facilitate this and after all if they believe TWAW they've got their wish to be placed with 'women' and 'women' just like themselves therefore nothing to complain about.

There pretty much is one at HMP Edinburgh.

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 19/06/2026 17:34

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/06/2026 17:28

There are some interesting comments from a man who says he is a prison officer on the r/politics thread. He says he works with 8 TIM prisoners, all there for sex offences. They seem to get a lot of privileges. Apparently they had a beautician in for Trans Day of Visibility. He said that if staff or other prisoners don’t affirm their identities they get disciplined.

Sacred caste, indeed.

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 19/06/2026 17:33

Wishesandhorses · 19/06/2026 17:13

Each of these cases seems to come back with a similar outcome.

First that yes it's likely the needs and wishes of this particular group do justify additional and different provisions, sensitivity and accommodation.

Second, that this cannot involve taking over women's resources, because those women have rights too.

Third spaces being the obvious solution.

And haven't we been saying just this very same thing for years and years and years? And, unbelievably, because a judge has said it, it's suddenly possible! Who knew that saying "Um, no" could have such an instantaneous, reality-based effect?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/06/2026 17:28

There are some interesting comments from a man who says he is a prison officer on the r/politics thread. He says he works with 8 TIM prisoners, all there for sex offences. They seem to get a lot of privileges. Apparently they had a beautician in for Trans Day of Visibility. He said that if staff or other prisoners don’t affirm their identities they get disciplined.

GailBlancheViola · 19/06/2026 17:16

ditalini · 19/06/2026 13:15

I don't think this is necessarily a loophole - it reads to me that, should such as situation arise then the SPS might reapply to have the specifics of that single case heard in court.

I would assume that their argument would be along the lines of it being one trans prisoner and to keep them segregated would be detrimental to their mental health therefore they were applying for them to be moved to a female prison where they would not be segregated (!).

However there are other solutions such as keeping them with other male prisoners at high risk of harm themselves, or keeping them with male prisoners who are assessed as being of low risk of causing harm, or moving them to a trans unit elsewhere in the prison estate.

It's not a case of "if this happens then you can move them", although there will be much attempt for it to be read as so in some quarters.

Or place them with the other TW prisoners on a dedicated wing within the male estate, there seem to be quite enough TW to facilitate this and after all if they believe TWAW they've got their wish to be placed with 'women' and 'women' just like themselves therefore nothing to complain about.

Wishesandhorses · 19/06/2026 17:13

Each of these cases seems to come back with a similar outcome.

First that yes it's likely the needs and wishes of this particular group do justify additional and different provisions, sensitivity and accommodation.

Second, that this cannot involve taking over women's resources, because those women have rights too.

Third spaces being the obvious solution.

Helleofabore · 19/06/2026 16:44

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/06/2026 13:19

Yes! And a rejection of the claim that not letting trans identified males into women’s spaces constitutes a breach of the Human Rights Act:

A trans prisoner may consider that these measures, even taken at their most extensive, are insufficient to allow for life, to use Baroness Hale’s words, “as fully a man or as fully a woman as the case may be” but there is no case to support an argument that Article 8 entails a right for a trans woman to live in the same place as and in the company of women.

the clearest I’ve ever heard a judge spell this out!

It is glorious. And it is unsurprising to the many of us that have been saying this and pointing out the clauses which contradict the claims of protection.

lcakethereforeIam · 19/06/2026 16:28

According to the Times article posted upthread, it's only a minority of TiM that are put in women's prison anyway. If the majority are already safely accommodated with the other men I'm sure the rest will be fine. They'll even have like minded blokes to mix with so no need to be fearful of solitary confinement.

GCScot · 19/06/2026 16:27

singthing · 19/06/2026 16:06

This extract is from a learned expert on Reddit. Note particularly his glumness about the "suicide option" at the end. Link to complete post at the end.

....Leaving aside the procedural matters, the key questions were:
Does the EA apply to prisons?
If so, how is the right of trans people not to be discriminated against due to having a PC of Gender Reassignment to be accommodated?
Does the interpretation give rise to an article 8 ECHR breach?
Does the interpretation give rise to arts 2&3 breaches relating to suicide?
On these points the court found:

Does the EA apply to prisons?
The court ruled the EA does apply. This is not surprising.
There is a lot of discussion about whether this counts as a public function for the purpose of the EA or supply of services.
The court finds it could count as either.
I am not going to dwell on this because there isn't much new here. FWS II applies- we know from the GLP case what that means.
And again, much the same reasoning is applied to determine that the SPS rules definition of male and female should match that of the EA as was used in GLP re the work regs. Again, not going to dwell on that.

This leads naturally on to:
If so, how is the right of trans people not to be discriminated against due to having a PC of Gender Reassignment to be accommodated?
The court found essentially that this is done by allowing continued access to medication and private ablutions within our ASAB facilities.
Hugely unsatisfactory imo.
The questions then turn to the human rights arguments:

Article 8
Goodwin was brought up, and dismissed as a narrow case:
In Goodwin and R (C) the issues with which the courts were concerned were the maintenance of government records and the retention of official data. The implementation of policies relating to such matters may well engage Article 8 rights, but there will be no direct impact on other individuals in respect of whom official records are maintained.

The remainder of the article 8 argument was also dismissed:
None of these cases establishes that trans women have a Convention right to accommodation in the women’s estate, or a right to be considered for accommodation in the women’s estate. Trans women have Article 8 rights, but respect for those rights does 61 not extend to an obligation to provide accommodation with women.

Such respect may well necessitate measures which can be, and are, taken within the men’s estate, including ensuring access to hormone treatment and maintaining privacy and dignity in showering arrangements. These provisions are set out in the Prisons Guidance.

Such measures do not involve any conflict with the protection of separate spaces. So far as accommodation is concerned, though, the relevance of the qualifications in Article 8(2) is immediately apparent.

Sex segregation in prisons is in accordance with law and is necessary, at least, for the protection of health and morals, and to protect the rights and freedoms of others, specifically women prisoners.

These are essentially reasons which support the maintenance of separate spaces in the context of the EA 2010, and as discussed in FWS 2.

This foreshadows a point I have raised previously with regard to the GLP appeal.

Recent caselaw has established that UK courts should no longer anticipate ECtHR rulings and so should be cautious when issuing declarations of incomparability where there is no direct precedence from Europe.

She goes on to cite this explicitly when referring to the art 2 and 3 arguments that holding trans people in ASAB prisons increases the risk of suicide and so breaches the convention:

Articles 2&3
In submitting that I should conclude that a Convention compliant reading of rule 126 requires construing its terms as permitting the accommodation of trans women in female prisons, the respondents are inviting the court to develop the law in relation to Convention rights beyond the limits of the Strasbourg case law. However, the domestic courts should not go further than they can be confident that the European court would go: Elan-Cane, paragraph 63. I cannot be confident that the European court would go so far as to recognise a Convention right for a trans prisoner to be accommodated in a prison for the opposite biological sex; no authority has been cited that would allow me to reach that conclusion.

However she does awkowledge ls that in extreme cases where there is a direct threat to life the SPS will need to consider exceptional measures:

Ultimately, the argument concerns the question of whether there can be any flexibility to allow for the truly exceptional case where, if accommodated in a prison in accordance with the trans prisoner’s biological sex, there is a threat to life or of harm that is so severe that it meets the Article 3 threshold. The first point is that it would be necessary to consider all possible means of addressing that threat, including means for which no provision is currently made.

That said, other dicta makes it clear that this should almost never include transfer to the female estate:
The existence of risk, though, does not necessitate an option, as a matter of policy, to accommodate trans women prisoners within the women’s estate. The women’s estate is not a neutral space; those accommodated within it are women who, as was submitted for the petitioner, have their own vulnerabilities in terms of poor mental health and risk of suicide.

So in practice, she is referencing third spaces.

TLDR- it's pretty bad. It addresses the core arguments the GLP are hoping to advance in their appeal and confirms that we are highly unlikely to get a remedy to FWSII from the domestic courts.

It is either going to have to come from parliament or Strasbourg.

-----
full post https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1u9z4j6/comment/oskm8eh/

Amazed that this guy can write this:

"The women’s estate is not a neutral space; those accommodated within it are women who, as was submitted for the petitioner, have their own vulnerabilities in terms of poor mental health and risk of suicide."

And still have the chutzpah to conclude that the ruling is "pretty bad", and go on to discuss ways of overturning it

I mean - he actually said clearly and succinctly what feminists have been saying for years - that we don't hate trans people, but the overreach from TRAs is affecting the rights of another group of people (women). Why have so few mainstream politicians and journalists and public thinkers said this over the last decade? Were they caught napping? Have they not been listening to anyone outside of their own small circle? Do they not see women, or do they just not care?

But yes, fantastic news! 🥳

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 19/06/2026 16:10

singthing · 19/06/2026 15:58

To be clear I am not an expert nor a lawyer, and I can't (annoyingly) remember where I read it either. So don't hold it as gospel. But it does seem to make more logical sense than the second way, so...

The way "case-by-case" was explained to me (several times, if I recall correctly, because I Just Wasn't Getting It) is that the "case" is the situation, not the individual. If a situation (e.g. changing roons) is considered lawfully only suitable for Group A, then everyone in Group A is legally allowed. This does not include someone from Group B who looks like/thinks like/wants to be like people in Group A. And there has to be a justifiable reason for the situation to include only people from Group A.

So case-by-case determines what type of situation it should be, and whether it's justified. Then you look at the groups of people.

I hope that's right!

SidewaysOtter · 19/06/2026 16:10

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/06/2026 16:07

I think this is Protect the Dollz after a nc, I could be wrong but v similar

It’s definitely his writing style and it’s halfway sensible.

Less sensible is the poster suggesting we’re all “pro rape”…because TIMs being locked up with non-TIMs is our problem how?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/06/2026 16:08

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 19/06/2026 16:04

And while we’re at it, can we have a good look at GIRES, Gendered Intelligence, Stephen Whittle, and their interesting relationship with NHSE…?

Yes, I imagine if that was how the old proscription thing worked we could put together quite a convincing case for a few TRA orgs. But I don’t think it is, boys.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/06/2026 16:07

I think this is Protect the Dollz after a nc, I could be wrong but v similar

singthing · 19/06/2026 16:06

This extract is from a learned expert on Reddit. Note particularly his glumness about the "suicide option" at the end. Link to complete post at the end.

....Leaving aside the procedural matters, the key questions were:
Does the EA apply to prisons?
If so, how is the right of trans people not to be discriminated against due to having a PC of Gender Reassignment to be accommodated?
Does the interpretation give rise to an article 8 ECHR breach?
Does the interpretation give rise to arts 2&3 breaches relating to suicide?
On these points the court found:

Does the EA apply to prisons?
The court ruled the EA does apply. This is not surprising.
There is a lot of discussion about whether this counts as a public function for the purpose of the EA or supply of services.
The court finds it could count as either.
I am not going to dwell on this because there isn't much new here. FWS II applies- we know from the GLP case what that means.
And again, much the same reasoning is applied to determine that the SPS rules definition of male and female should match that of the EA as was used in GLP re the work regs. Again, not going to dwell on that.

This leads naturally on to:
If so, how is the right of trans people not to be discriminated against due to having a PC of Gender Reassignment to be accommodated?
The court found essentially that this is done by allowing continued access to medication and private ablutions within our ASAB facilities.
Hugely unsatisfactory imo.
The questions then turn to the human rights arguments:

Article 8
Goodwin was brought up, and dismissed as a narrow case:
In Goodwin and R (C) the issues with which the courts were concerned were the maintenance of government records and the retention of official data. The implementation of policies relating to such matters may well engage Article 8 rights, but there will be no direct impact on other individuals in respect of whom official records are maintained.

The remainder of the article 8 argument was also dismissed:
None of these cases establishes that trans women have a Convention right to accommodation in the women’s estate, or a right to be considered for accommodation in the women’s estate. Trans women have Article 8 rights, but respect for those rights does 61 not extend to an obligation to provide accommodation with women.

Such respect may well necessitate measures which can be, and are, taken within the men’s estate, including ensuring access to hormone treatment and maintaining privacy and dignity in showering arrangements. These provisions are set out in the Prisons Guidance.

Such measures do not involve any conflict with the protection of separate spaces. So far as accommodation is concerned, though, the relevance of the qualifications in Article 8(2) is immediately apparent.

Sex segregation in prisons is in accordance with law and is necessary, at least, for the protection of health and morals, and to protect the rights and freedoms of others, specifically women prisoners.

These are essentially reasons which support the maintenance of separate spaces in the context of the EA 2010, and as discussed in FWS 2.

This foreshadows a point I have raised previously with regard to the GLP appeal.

Recent caselaw has established that UK courts should no longer anticipate ECtHR rulings and so should be cautious when issuing declarations of incomparability where there is no direct precedence from Europe.

She goes on to cite this explicitly when referring to the art 2 and 3 arguments that holding trans people in ASAB prisons increases the risk of suicide and so breaches the convention:

Articles 2&3
In submitting that I should conclude that a Convention compliant reading of rule 126 requires construing its terms as permitting the accommodation of trans women in female prisons, the respondents are inviting the court to develop the law in relation to Convention rights beyond the limits of the Strasbourg case law. However, the domestic courts should not go further than they can be confident that the European court would go: Elan-Cane, paragraph 63. I cannot be confident that the European court would go so far as to recognise a Convention right for a trans prisoner to be accommodated in a prison for the opposite biological sex; no authority has been cited that would allow me to reach that conclusion.

However she does awkowledge ls that in extreme cases where there is a direct threat to life the SPS will need to consider exceptional measures:

Ultimately, the argument concerns the question of whether there can be any flexibility to allow for the truly exceptional case where, if accommodated in a prison in accordance with the trans prisoner’s biological sex, there is a threat to life or of harm that is so severe that it meets the Article 3 threshold. The first point is that it would be necessary to consider all possible means of addressing that threat, including means for which no provision is currently made.

That said, other dicta makes it clear that this should almost never include transfer to the female estate:
The existence of risk, though, does not necessitate an option, as a matter of policy, to accommodate trans women prisoners within the women’s estate. The women’s estate is not a neutral space; those accommodated within it are women who, as was submitted for the petitioner, have their own vulnerabilities in terms of poor mental health and risk of suicide.

So in practice, she is referencing third spaces.

TLDR- it's pretty bad. It addresses the core arguments the GLP are hoping to advance in their appeal and confirms that we are highly unlikely to get a remedy to FWSII from the domestic courts.

It is either going to have to come from parliament or Strasbourg.

-----
full post https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1u9z4j6/comment/oskm8eh/

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 19/06/2026 16:04

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/06/2026 16:01

Someone has suggested a petition to proscribe Sex Matters and FWS as “terrorist organisations” - idiotic in itself. The response:

Sudden-Girth3141
•
20m ago
agreed, though i don't think a petition wouldn't do much.
i think it would need to be presented a lot more officially, with evidence proving their deliberate erosion of our rights, bribery, corruption of politics and donator history

go for it, “Sudden Girth” 🙄

And while we’re at it, can we have a good look at GIRES, Gendered Intelligence, Stephen Whittle, and their interesting relationship with NHSE…?

SidewaysOtter · 19/06/2026 16:04

I look forward to seeing evidence of this 'bribery, corruption of politics and donator [sic] history". Knock yourself out, lads.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/06/2026 16:01

CassOle · 19/06/2026 14:20

That Reddit thread is hitting all the lows and demonstrating a complete lack of understanding of history or reality.

'We are in Nazi territory now.' 🙄

Someone has suggested a petition to proscribe Sex Matters and FWS as “terrorist organisations” - idiotic in itself. The response:

Sudden-Girth3141
•
20m ago
agreed, though i don't think a petition wouldn't do much.
i think it would need to be presented a lot more officially, with evidence proving their deliberate erosion of our rights, bribery, corruption of politics and donator history

go for it, “Sudden Girth” 🙄

singthing · 19/06/2026 15:58

SidewaysOtter · 19/06/2026 15:51

So “case by case” is actually a blanket policy in all but name. Make it make sense! <weeps>

To be clear I am not an expert nor a lawyer, and I can't (annoyingly) remember where I read it either. So don't hold it as gospel. But it does seem to make more logical sense than the second way, so...

SidewaysOtter · 19/06/2026 15:51

singthing · 19/06/2026 15:49

I read somewhere that case by case means class-wide decisions like "can any male with a trans identity go into a female prison" - yes or no. Where that decision applies to ALL males with trans identities in that scenario, in one fell swoop.

It does not NOT mean individually deciding whether "Emmet-now-Emily" is enough of a laydee to somehow qualify for a female cellmate; but "Floyd-now-Florence" is not. Obviously that way lies utter madness, but this whole thing is like an episode of Lunatics Live anyway....

So “case by case” is actually a blanket policy in all but name. Make it make sense! <weeps>

singthing · 19/06/2026 15:49

SidewaysOtter · 19/06/2026 15:14

Absolutely bloody brilliant. Well done those women.

The 'case-by-case argument' has imploded.

I've never understood how a 'case by case' thing was ever going to be applied. What were the criteria for a decision? (A hypothetical question as I know there aren't any...)

I read somewhere that case by case means class-wide decisions like "can any male with a trans identity go into a female prison" - yes or no. Where that decision applies to ALL males with trans identities in that scenario, in one fell swoop.

It does not NOT mean individually deciding whether "Emmet-now-Emily" is enough of a laydee to somehow qualify for a female cellmate; but "Floyd-now-Florence" is not. Obviously that way lies utter madness, but this whole thing is like an episode of Lunatics Live anyway....

SidewaysOtter · 19/06/2026 15:14

Absolutely bloody brilliant. Well done those women.

The 'case-by-case argument' has imploded.

I've never understood how a 'case by case' thing was ever going to be applied. What were the criteria for a decision? (A hypothetical question as I know there aren't any...)

sohard · 19/06/2026 15:14

So what’s the betting that FWS will have to take ScotGov back to court to get them to actually comply with this ruling?

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 19/06/2026 15:04

Alucard55 · 19/06/2026 14:41

On the "suicide" thing. If a male prisoner is threatening suicide then surely he needs to go on suicide watch not the women's estate?

Really can't understand this.

Me too. If your common or garden male inmate threatens suicide, does he get plonked into the female estate??

Wishesandhorses · 19/06/2026 15:01

And this bit - the context of the statement about 'in some cases' - it's not as strong as it looks in isolation:

[167] It is conceivable that, in an extreme case involving a threat to life and a potential breach of Article 2, a trans prisoner may be able to argue that the first respondents ought to disapply rule 126 of the 2011 Rules. Whether or not such an argument could be advanced would depend on the specific circumstances of that prisoner and on whether other suicide prevention measures had been tried. Within the present proceedings, it is impossible to say whether that could be done, and whether any such argument would succeed. The disapplication of rule 126 would be more complex than the disregard of the subordinate legislation relating to housing benefit considered in RR. It would involve, among other things, consideration of the Convention rights of other prisoners.

The Equality Act is NOT the only barrier. And might suggest that attempted changes to the EqA would be incompatible with the Convention rights of varied groups. Other People Have Rights Too is the real issue facing activists.

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