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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another victory! For Women Scotland v Scottish Ministers in prisons case

240 replies

TheNoWord · 19/06/2026 12:04

It’s just been on the news in Scotland. More to follow….

OP posts:
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GailBlancheViola · 19/06/2026 21:02

IwantToRetire · 19/06/2026 20:51

Yeah, but imagine having to take your government to court, what, five times? To get them to concede that women have human rights equal to men.

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2026/06/19/mbm-statement-on-fws-v-the-scottish-ministers-judicial-review-of-scottish-prison-service-transgender-prison-policy/

A blaster of a statement and never a truer word spoken.

Seethlaw · 19/06/2026 20:58

IwantToRetire · 19/06/2026 20:51

Yeah, but imagine having to take your government to court, what, five times? To get them to concede that women have human rights equal to men.

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2026/06/19/mbm-statement-on-fws-v-the-scottish-ministers-judicial-review-of-scottish-prison-service-transgender-prison-policy/

Holy shit O.O !! They are not mincing their words, are they? Wow...

ArabellaScott · 19/06/2026 20:42

EasternStandard · 19/06/2026 20:05

Amazing. Such strength.

Yeah, but imagine having to take your government to court, what, five times? To get them to concede that women have human rights equal to men.

sohard · 19/06/2026 20:34

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/06/2026 16:07

I think this is Protect the Dollz after a nc, I could be wrong but v similar

It’s definitely PTD. Check out his bio.

ItsCoolForCats · 19/06/2026 20:28

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/06/2026 20:08

Trying to find it again, I hate the formatting of Reddit threads. If I do, I’ll post the whole comment and a link. He comments a few times on the thread in r/politics but it’s a long thread with multiple threaded replies.

Thanks @Ereshkigalangcleg I did have a look earlier but couldn't find it

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 19/06/2026 20:24

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/06/2026 20:21

It's this logical leap that always bothers me because they get from
The SC says that sex in the equality act means this sex assigned at birth BS, ok fine.
But there then doesn't appear to be a coherent logical argument where this then gives the interpretation that 'therefore trans people must be excluded from single sex spaces that don't match their ASAB'
If I were to construct it as a syllogism the logic generally appears to be (as per the usual suspects)
P1: Sex means sex assigned at birth.
P2: Inclusion of a someone assigned male at birth destroys the single-sex character of a service.
C: Therefore trans women/men cannot be included in a women's/men's single-sex service.

wow, what bizarre logic we have, how did we possibly come to that conclusion 🙄

They almost get it, don't they. If they wanted to, or had ever been taught any kind of critical thinking, they could understand. If they wanted to. But they don't. They would rather wither away in their ever-decreasing fantasy bubble.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/06/2026 20:21

It's this logical leap that always bothers me because they get from
The SC says that sex in the equality act means this sex assigned at birth BS, ok fine.
But there then doesn't appear to be a coherent logical argument where this then gives the interpretation that 'therefore trans people must be excluded from single sex spaces that don't match their ASAB'
If I were to construct it as a syllogism the logic generally appears to be (as per the usual suspects)
P1: Sex means sex assigned at birth.
P2: Inclusion of a someone assigned male at birth destroys the single-sex character of a service.
C: Therefore trans women/men cannot be included in a women's/men's single-sex service.

wow, what bizarre logic we have, how did we possibly come to that conclusion 🙄

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 19/06/2026 20:20

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/06/2026 20:02

No, it’s not complex John, it’s perfectly simple. Get on with it. No men in women’s prisons, or women’s anything else.

They're out in force tonight in the "other recent thread " so I've shifted over here for a bit of sane discussion.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/06/2026 20:08

ItsCoolForCats · 19/06/2026 18:08

Do you have a link?

Trying to find it again, I hate the formatting of Reddit threads. If I do, I’ll post the whole comment and a link. He comments a few times on the thread in r/politics but it’s a long thread with multiple threaded replies.

EasternStandard · 19/06/2026 20:05

ArabellaScott · 19/06/2026 18:48

.

Amazing. Such strength.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/06/2026 20:02

No, it’s not complex John, it’s perfectly simple. Get on with it. No men in women’s prisons, or women’s anything else.

logiccalls · 19/06/2026 19:47

Those who ask for 'third' spaces need to ask if anyone has surplus money. If not, who should fund the fetishists and fantasists and flat-earth cult worshippers?
There is no such thing as a flat earth. Therefore no such thing as planet-transing. No such thing as changing sex. Therefore no such thing as trans. Please can everyone stop using the word?

PS Please can everyone stop suggesting fetish cultists use facilities hard faught for and eventually supplied to meet the needs of disabled people?

logiccalls · 19/06/2026 19:34

One step forward two steps back. a)The cult has re-persuaded the NHS to give 11 year old girls and 12 year old boys drugs to 'change sex'. b) The 'captured' ones in power have clearly resolved that if courts keep saying the law is not exactly what the fetishists/fantasists want it to be, then the law must be ignored until it can be turned into Stonelaw-compliant wording.

lcakethereforeIam · 19/06/2026 19:17

ItsCoolForCats · 19/06/2026 18:08

Do you have a link?

Wasn't there a case earlier this year, a man who was being trained as a prison guard was sacked for saying he wouldn't call a man by female pronouns. He sued but lost. I think it's going to appeal.

ArabellaScott · 19/06/2026 18:48

.

Another victory! For Women Scotland v Scottish Ministers in prisons case
Wishesandhorses · 19/06/2026 18:40

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 19/06/2026 17:33

And haven't we been saying just this very same thing for years and years and years? And, unbelievably, because a judge has said it, it's suddenly possible! Who knew that saying "Um, no" could have such an instantaneous, reality-based effect?

I'm not sure activists would agree it was possible, but yes, interesting that the law interpreted by multiple judges (and NOT just the EA but everything, the Convention too, so getting some twit politicians to try and change the EA won't change much) come to the same answer we did a decade ago.

It's the only fair and reasonable answer.

Wishesandhorses · 19/06/2026 18:36

adopt general measures which apply to pre-defined situations regardless of the individual facts of each case even if this might result in individual hard cases

Also referenced by the SCJ in FWS in the context of the measures needed to provide equality and facilities for a group (women) - the individual hard cases were not a reason to remove needed and wanted facilities from everyone else.

MarieDeGournay · 19/06/2026 18:27

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 19/06/2026 16:10

The way "case-by-case" was explained to me (several times, if I recall correctly, because I Just Wasn't Getting It) is that the "case" is the situation, not the individual. If a situation (e.g. changing roons) is considered lawfully only suitable for Group A, then everyone in Group A is legally allowed. This does not include someone from Group B who looks like/thinks like/wants to be like people in Group A. And there has to be a justifiable reason for the situation to include only people from Group A.

So case-by-case determines what type of situation it should be, and whether it's justified. Then you look at the groups of people.

I hope that's right!

Not directly responding to your post, but along the same lines -

I was interested to read in the ruling that 'hard cases make bad laws'/it can be permissible for a law to have negative consequences for individuals.
Like New York New York, it's so good she named it twice, at 114 and 135😄

135 ..The imposition of a bright line rule may have adverse consequences for individuals but there is a strong line of authority which makes clear that, as explained by the European Court of Human Rights in Animal Defenders at paragraph 106: “a state can, consistently with the Convention, adopt general measures which apply to pre-defined situations regardless of the individual facts of each case even if this might result in individual hard cases”.

114... Relying on Animal Defenders International v United Kingdom (2013) 57 EHRR 21 at [106], the petitioner maintained that a general measure can be adopted which applies to pre-defined situations regardless of the individual facts of each case even if this might result in individual hard cases.

The 'pre-defined situation' in this case is that it is long-established practice that prisons are segregated by sex, and that fact that a few trans-IDing men don't like it does not mean it breaches their human rights.

and
82... For separate spaces to be maintained in a way that is foreseeable and consistent, there require to be rules, whether statutory, as in this case, or otherwise, which are capable of general application.

The judgment is well worth a read, Lady Ross is very clear and concise eg
92.. There are disadvantages associated with the sharing of accommodation by female and male prisoners; were it otherwise, there would be no need for sex segregation. [mic drop😁but not really because she goes on to say:]
At a minimum, those disadvantages are a risk to physical safety and violation of dignity.

108.... However, the respondents seek to apply an over-expansive construction of “equal opportunity requirements”. Promulgating and applying a policy which is inconsistent with the “equal opportunity requirements”, as defined in section L2 of Schedule 5, and by reference to the EA 2010, read, in this case, with the 2011 Rules, would result not in the observance of those requirements but in a breach.

And I noticed a reference to segregated swimming areas - any one in particular I wonder?🤔

75 The examples listed in paragraph [211] - changing rooms, homeless hostels, segregated swimming area - are all within the services category. These are all services provided to both men and women, but separately, and for reasons including the protection of women’s safety and the autonomy or privacy and dignity of the two sexes

And finally -how's this for a put-down?
[107] The difficulty with the respondents’ argument becomes clearer when its logical consequence is considered.
ouch!😁

[all bold/underlining mine]

IwantToRetire · 19/06/2026 18:26

Sorry only had time to read the first page, so this link may have been added.

But here is FWS press release on their web site for all those not on twitter (did you know twitter has fewer users than reddit!)

https://forwomen.scot/19/06/2026/fws-v-scottish-ministers-iii-the-judgment/

[178] Sex segregation in prisons in Scotland is lawful. The statutory scheme, based on the EA 2010 and the 2011 Rules, requires separate prison accommodation for men and women. Following FWS 2, this means sex segregation in prisons according to biological sex.

[179] Insofar as the Prisons Guidance allows SPS to accommodate trans prisoners in prisons for the opposite biological sex, it is in conflict with the requirement that prison accommodation be provided separately for men and women. That constitutes a mis-statement of the law.

[181] All prisoners have rights under the European Convention on Human Rights. Trans prisoners have rights under Article 8, but this does not extend to a right to be accommodated in a prison for the opposite biological sex. Article 8 rights are qualified and there is a justification for maintaining sex segregation in prisons. The statutory scheme imposes a bright line rule and sex segregation in prisons does not admit of exceptions on the basis of Article 8 rights.

[184] In all the circumstances, the Prisons Guidance is unlawful and the petitioner is entitled to orders for declarator and reduction.

(Extract only)

FWS v Scottish Ministers III – the judgment - For Women Scotland

Judgment was handed down by the Court of Session on Friday 19th June on For Women Scotland v The Scottish Ministers on the Scottish Prison Service Policy for the Management of Transgender People in Custody Operational Guidance. [178] Sex segregation in...

https://forwomen.scot/19/06/2026/fws-v-scottish-ministers-iii-the-judgment/

PoliticalTerfery · 19/06/2026 18:24

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 19/06/2026 16:10

The way "case-by-case" was explained to me (several times, if I recall correctly, because I Just Wasn't Getting It) is that the "case" is the situation, not the individual. If a situation (e.g. changing roons) is considered lawfully only suitable for Group A, then everyone in Group A is legally allowed. This does not include someone from Group B who looks like/thinks like/wants to be like people in Group A. And there has to be a justifiable reason for the situation to include only people from Group A.

So case-by-case determines what type of situation it should be, and whether it's justified. Then you look at the groups of people.

I hope that's right!

Also not a lawyer, but I think it's even more tightly drawn than that, from what I remember of some answers Karon Monaghan gave to a Commons Select Committee a while ago. You're right that "case by case" doesn't refer to the individual but rather the setting, but it's specific to the individual setting, not all settings of that type. So if we were talking changing rooms, a "case by case" reading might say that a specific changing room with cubicles that have lockable doors and an attendant would be considered differently to ones with flimsy curtains or just a communal space. Or in the case of prisons, having a dedicated unit for transwomen in the female estate (like Downview) being considered differently to putting transwomen in a different prison.

(For the avoidance of doubt, I'm in favour of specialist provision outside the female estate, but think this is how case by case might be argued)

ItsCoolForCats · 19/06/2026 18:08

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/06/2026 17:28

There are some interesting comments from a man who says he is a prison officer on the r/politics thread. He says he works with 8 TIM prisoners, all there for sex offences. They seem to get a lot of privileges. Apparently they had a beautician in for Trans Day of Visibility. He said that if staff or other prisoners don’t affirm their identities they get disciplined.

Do you have a link?

sohard · 19/06/2026 18:07

You just know that the SNP are going to try and utilise the suicide “loophole”.

ArabellaScott · 19/06/2026 18:06

CassOle · 19/06/2026 14:20

That Reddit thread is hitting all the lows and demonstrating a complete lack of understanding of history or reality.

'We are in Nazi territory now.' 🙄

JFC.

Seriously?