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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ed Davey says the EHRC code has failed in its objective and calls for post legislative scrutiny of the GRA & EA. Presumably to legally allow blokes in the ladies.

163 replies

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 30/05/2026 18:22

https://x.com/LibDems/status/2060771889295900821/photo/1

Ed Davey says the EHRC code has failed in its objective and calls for post legislative scrutiny of the GRA & EA. Presumably to legally allow blokes in the ladies.
Ed Davey says the EHRC code has failed in its objective and calls for post legislative scrutiny of the GRA & EA. Presumably to legally allow blokes in the ladies.
Ed Davey says the EHRC code has failed in its objective and calls for post legislative scrutiny of the GRA & EA. Presumably to legally allow blokes in the ladies.
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MyAutumnCrow · 14/06/2026 11:51

Cars4Gov · 12/06/2026 10:39

Has Daisy signed? As Deputy I wonder if she is trying to secure a section of the party.

Yes. So very disappointing.

But I am reminded that she was at least obliquely involved in the Hacked Off shenanigans described in the recent Prince Harry, Elton John, Simon Hughes & Luvvies Galore v Associated Newspapers (ANL) in the High Court, through which I concluded that she must believe in more strange things and stranger people that I had hitherto realised.

Under that sensible exterior must boil a cauldron of frothing nutjobbery dissonance.

sohard · 14/06/2026 11:30

It’s funny isn’t it that they think the 2011 EHRC code was objective when we know it was influenced by TRAs and has been found in court to have misrepresented the law. 🤔

Cars4Gov · 12/06/2026 10:39

Arran2024 · 11/06/2026 15:30

Ed still hasn't signed the EDM!

Has Daisy signed? As Deputy I wonder if she is trying to secure a section of the party.

fromorbit · 11/06/2026 16:04

Arran2024 · 11/06/2026 15:30

Ed still hasn't signed the EDM!

Indeed as havve a bunch of other Lib Dems about 30 I think. The party is divided over this.

Going to come to a head at some point.

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 11/06/2026 15:33

Well first if Ed was my brother, I would never admit in a month of Sundays. 😂

A spokeswoman for Sir Ed said he 'understands his brother has held a number of views that are different from his over many years and has always respected him for that'.

A snotty reply from the younger bro there. If Ed can't even convince his family, what chance does he stand convincing anyone else.

Arran2024 · 11/06/2026 15:30

Ed still hasn't signed the EDM!

ArabellaScott · 07/06/2026 13:03

Great letter. Heartening to see so many LibDems pushing back. I know locally several Libdem people are staunchly 'gender critical'.

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 07/06/2026 09:19

Thanks for the link, a nice letter

"Your letter also calls for the Equality Act to be subjected to post-legislative scrutiny. It is hard to avoid the conclusion that this process would be intended to reopen questions about the meaning of sex in law."

The EA was passed nearly 16 years ago it's a bit late to call for post-legislative scrutiny isn't it. It does make it clear that the motivation behind this move is to change sex to gender though. 🤬

They want to be just like all the other kids in the gang, like Aus, NZ and Tranada, why don't we just outsource our government to the rest of the world, we could save ourselves a packet by firing all our gender addled MP's.

ArabellaScott · 06/06/2026 18:10

Arran2024 · 06/06/2026 16:50

Btw Ed Davey has not signed the EDM as of Sat.

Odd. Maybe he's busy.

Arran2024 · 06/06/2026 16:50

Btw Ed Davey has not signed the EDM as of Sat.

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 06/06/2026 13:09

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

GenderlessVoid · 06/06/2026 12:57

The reasonableness requirement is written into the EA2010 for the duty to make adjustments for disabled people. I think that they limited the duty to what is reasonable because these statutory duties were placed wrt disabled people but not for other protected characteristics.

The first requirement is a requirement, where a provision, criterion or practice of A's puts a disabled person at a substantial disadvantage in relation to a relevant matter in comparison with persons who are not disabled, to take such steps as it is reasonable to have to take to avoid the disadvantage.

The second requirement is a requirement, where a physical feature puts a disabled person at a substantial disadvantage in relation to a relevant matter in comparison with persons who are not disabled, to take such steps as it is reasonable to have to take to avoid the disadvantage.

The third requirement is a requirement, where a disabled person would, but for the provision of an auxiliary aid, be put at a substantial disadvantage in relation to a relevant matter in comparison with persons who are not disabled, to take such steps as it is reasonable to have to take to provide the auxiliary aid.

I haven't had a chance to look at the guidance carefully, and I'm having problems with my eyes at the moment so take this with a pinch of salt but I think the following is relevant. Based on the following, I think there is a reasonableness requirement for transgender discrimination.

Justification for separate and single-sex services
[. . . .]
13.126 However, it may be that offering alternative arrangements is not reasonably possible for the service provider (including a person providing a service in the exercise of public functions) or that doing so would undermine the service that is being provided. This may be because of the type of service being provided, the needs of the service users, the physical constraints of any building, or because of the disproportionate financial costs associated with making those arrangements.

Example
13.127 In the example in paragraph 13.125, the women who have requested women-only classes also ask for single-sex changing rooms. The gym is in a small, shared studio space which provides mixed changing facilities with private cubicles for changing. The cubicles have floor to ceiling lockable doors and there have been no complaints about inappropriate conduct in the changing rooms. The service provider determines that providing single-sex changing rooms is impractical because of space constraints and the disproportionate cost. Since the existing changing rooms enable users to change in privacy, the current arrangement is likely to be proportionate and lawful.

Example
13.128 A women’s centre provides a gym predominantly used by Jewish women who have religious objections to sharing a gym with men. The gym considers whether to open the gym to men on certain days, or to open the gym on a mixed-sex basis on certain days.
However, the centre decides to offer the gym only to women because the overwhelming demand for the service is from Jewish women and there are numerous other gyms in the area that cater to men and trans women. This service would exclude men and trans women, but this is likely to be proportionate and lawful.

The gym should also consider whether a service user may have a reasonable objection to a trans man accessing the gym and, if so, whether it is necessary to exclude them. This will be a question of proportionality and will depend on all of the circumstances, including the extent to which the trans person presents as the opposite sex. For this reason, they should only consider doing this on a case-by-case basis.
Read paragraphs 13.145 to 13.147 for further detail.
[. . . .]

13.141 It may be that offering alternative arrangements is not reasonably possible for the service provider (or person providing a service in the exercise of public functions) or that doing so would undermine the service that is being provided. This may be because of the type of service being provided, the needs of the service users, the physical constraints of any building, or because of the disproportionate financial costs associated with making those arrangements. The service provider may take account of the fact that if it admits the individual, it may cease to be a separate or single-sex service (read paragraph 13.130).
[. . . .]

13.145 If it is justified to provide a separate or single-sex service, then it will not be unlawful discrimination because of gender reassignment to prevent, limit or modify trans people’s access to the service for their own sex, as long as doing so is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim (schedule 3, paragraph 28).

13.146 For example, a trans man might be excluded from the women-only service if the service provider decides that, because he presents as a man, other service users could reasonably object to his presence, and excluding him is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

13.147 A legitimate aim for excluding a trans person from a separate or single-sex service for their own sex might be to prevent discomfort or distress for other service users. Service providers should consider whether other service users could reasonably object because they are worried about sharing a single or separate-sex service with someone who appears to be of the opposite sex. That will depend on all the circumstances, including the nature of the service in question and the extent to which the trans person presents as the opposite sex. For this reason, a service provider (including a person providing a service in the exercise of public functions) should only consider doing this on a case-by-case basis.

13.148 The service provider should consider whether there is a suitable alternative service for the trans person to use. In the case of services which are necessary for everybody, such as toilets, it is very unlikely to be proportionate to put a trans person in a position where there is no service that they are allowed to use. . . .

Example
13.151 A trans man attends a gym frequently and uses the women’s changing room, consistent with his sex. If the gym owner decides that he can no longer use the women’s changing room and there is no other changing room he can use, this may be a disproportionate decision. If it is disproportionate, the gym owner will not be able to rely on the exception for gender reassignment discrimination (schedule 3, paragraph 28). The trans man will be able to bring a complaint of direct gender reassignment discrimination, because he has been treated less favourably than a woman who does not have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

_

This seems to relate to, e.g., a service provider telling a trans man that he can't use the womens and he can't use the gents because allowing the trans man to use the gents would mean that it was no longer single sex (and the provider wants to provide single sex toilets). Here, I think the guidance is suggesting that barring someone from both without providing an alternative will almost always be disproportionate.

I think that makes sense because a service provider could usually have alternative arrangements without expensive construction or modifications. For example, they could offer to escort the trans man when she uses the ladies.

-------------
Communal accommodation

13.158 When excluding a person from use of communal accommodation because of sex or gender reassignment, the service provider, person exercising public functions or association must consider:

  • whether and how far it is reasonable to expect that the accommodation should be altered or extended or that further accommodation should be provided, and
  • the relative frequency of demand or need for the accommodation by persons of each sex (schedule 23, paragraph 3(3))

13.159 Excluding a person from use of communal accommodation provided for their own sex because of gender reassignment will only be lawful if it is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim (schedule 23, paragraph 3(4)). The matters which a service provider, person exercising public functions or association should consider are similar to those set out in paragraphs 13.113 to 13.152.

ArabellaScott · 06/06/2026 12:11

Magic, thanks. Will send.

MarieDeGournay · 06/06/2026 12:05

ArabellaScott · 06/06/2026 10:18

Fuck aye! An absolutely excellent point.

I want this to be sent to BP - would SexMatters raise it?

Marie would you write to them? Happy to do so if you dont want to.

I'm pleased that something that has been nagging away at the back of my mind for ages turns out to make sense to other people, thank you!

My mind seems to have a level of operation that goes - hang on, that's not fair/consistent/logical/reasonable/comparable/proportionate.
Especially proportionality. Might be an echo of my Dominican schooling - Aquinas and all that..😏

If you wouldn't mind sending my post MarieDeGournay · 02/06/2026 11:16 to SM, I'd be grateful, Arabella, it would feel a bit 'look at meeee!' if I did so myself.

They may recognise my username - when we did 'synchronised donating' to honour Sandie Peggie, and to thank Naomi C and the legal team, I was the one who emailed them that any uptick in their donations was from us MNers, and explained that it was to say thank you.

I still have in my inbox two nice replies from ✨NC herself✨😀

Thank you, and thank you to everybody who goes to such lengths to explain the detail of laws and parliamentary process and all that - I really appreciate that this board runs on facts and that posters are prepared to share their knowledge and expertise. I've learnt a lot here.

I was looking for an Edmund Burke quote to use on another thread, and I came across this one: 'Facts are to the mind what food is to the body'
Which may explain why we can move so seamlessly here from genetics to jurisprudence to legislation to Tunnocks to cake recipes😁

[I am aware of Burke's serious limitations, but he said some very quotable things about law and society and humanity and justice, that I keep returning to in this debate]

ArabellaScott · 06/06/2026 11:48

@MarieDeGournay could we make a new thread on this point? And use your post?

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 06/06/2026 11:47

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

BeKindWisely · 06/06/2026 10:36

KnottyAuty · 06/06/2026 10:01

Hanks for flagging as somehow I missed the original. This isn’t just a good point - it’s the killer/winning point! If it’s good enough for disabled people then it must be good enough for trans - otherwise youll need to upgrade for disabled people to avoid discrimination compared to that group. Very interesting!! Thanks @MarieDeGournay

Absolutely!

ArabellaScott · 06/06/2026 10:18

KnottyAuty · 06/06/2026 10:01

Hanks for flagging as somehow I missed the original. This isn’t just a good point - it’s the killer/winning point! If it’s good enough for disabled people then it must be good enough for trans - otherwise youll need to upgrade for disabled people to avoid discrimination compared to that group. Very interesting!! Thanks @MarieDeGournay

Fuck aye! An absolutely excellent point.

I want this to be sent to BP - would SexMatters raise it?

Marie would you write to them? Happy to do so if you dont want to.

ArabellaScott · 06/06/2026 10:16

fromorbit · 03/06/2026 01:24

Just to explain what is going on again as there seems to be some confusion . This is no ordinary Early Day Motion.

It is effectively what is called a Fatal Prayer motion which is the only way for Parliament to potentially stop alterations to statutory instruments being enacted. I.E it is a way they can stop the EHCR code from being accepted. Remember achieving this will not change the law which says women exist and have single sex spaces. It just means there would be no guidance to explain the law.

However the issue is that getting the motion from here to a debate and vote relies on either the government deciding to allow it or the opposition pushing for it. Thus it is very rare for a Fatal prayer motion to actually be passed the last time in the Commons was in 1979.

Summary here:
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02569/

So is it pointless. NO it is not. Right now 51 MPs 7.85% of the house have signed. If they get say get a quarter or third of MPs to sign then there will be increasing pressure to allow a debate. The government would not have to of course, but there would be calls for it. A Fatal Prayer motion was debated in Commons committee in 2025 over government plans to alter local government elections. So they can have effect if A LOT of MPs sign and support them.

The reverse is true of course. If they cannot get much more than this it will show the TA cause in this current Parliament is pretty sunk.

So should people write to their MP. Yes if MPs who are wavering get a lot of pro EHCR letters it will incline them to sit this motion out. Keep telling them how excellent the Supreme court judgement is and how important women's safety is. A lot of TAs will be writing to their MPs we need to do the same.

A biased perspective but a summary here:

National article - See the MPs backing bid to have UK equality watchdog's trans guidance scrapped

https://archive.is/Gbd7K

Thank you! I needed a clear explanation after Stella Creasey idiotsplained it on X.

KnottyAuty · 06/06/2026 10:01

BeKindWisely · 02/06/2026 19:33

Not read to the end of the thread, so someone lawerly may have responded to this.
Just wanted to say what an interesting and excellent point this is- and I hope it is discussed further!
(Also, just to unashamedly save it for my personal little catalogue of excellent FWR points made)

Hanks for flagging as somehow I missed the original. This isn’t just a good point - it’s the killer/winning point! If it’s good enough for disabled people then it must be good enough for trans - otherwise youll need to upgrade for disabled people to avoid discrimination compared to that group. Very interesting!! Thanks @MarieDeGournay

fromorbit · 06/06/2026 08:53

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 04/06/2026 21:10

Is the EHRC guidance a "statutory instrument"? If so, there's a form of wording that the prayer should take and that EDM isn't it.

Yeah others pointed that out. Hence the debate whether Whittome knows what she is doing.

Anyway the motion has only 93 signatures so it is not going anywhere clearly as a huge surge in signatures is unlikely now.

To the original point of this thread.

Running total is 93 signed which is 14.3% of all MPs, with 2 Lib Dems withdrawn . Another third Lib Dem who withdrew their signature has flipped back.

Of those 93 there are 41 Lib Dems signed out of 72 Lib Dem MPs. So clear internal divisions there, especially with those who withdrew their signatures, and notably still no Ed Davey signing. What is going on inside Lib Dem world?

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 04/06/2026 21:10

fromorbit · 03/06/2026 01:24

Just to explain what is going on again as there seems to be some confusion . This is no ordinary Early Day Motion.

It is effectively what is called a Fatal Prayer motion which is the only way for Parliament to potentially stop alterations to statutory instruments being enacted. I.E it is a way they can stop the EHCR code from being accepted. Remember achieving this will not change the law which says women exist and have single sex spaces. It just means there would be no guidance to explain the law.

However the issue is that getting the motion from here to a debate and vote relies on either the government deciding to allow it or the opposition pushing for it. Thus it is very rare for a Fatal prayer motion to actually be passed the last time in the Commons was in 1979.

Summary here:
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02569/

So is it pointless. NO it is not. Right now 51 MPs 7.85% of the house have signed. If they get say get a quarter or third of MPs to sign then there will be increasing pressure to allow a debate. The government would not have to of course, but there would be calls for it. A Fatal Prayer motion was debated in Commons committee in 2025 over government plans to alter local government elections. So they can have effect if A LOT of MPs sign and support them.

The reverse is true of course. If they cannot get much more than this it will show the TA cause in this current Parliament is pretty sunk.

So should people write to their MP. Yes if MPs who are wavering get a lot of pro EHCR letters it will incline them to sit this motion out. Keep telling them how excellent the Supreme court judgement is and how important women's safety is. A lot of TAs will be writing to their MPs we need to do the same.

A biased perspective but a summary here:

National article - See the MPs backing bid to have UK equality watchdog's trans guidance scrapped

https://archive.is/Gbd7K

Is the EHRC guidance a "statutory instrument"? If so, there's a form of wording that the prayer should take and that EDM isn't it.

Cars4Gov · 03/06/2026 19:59

Given her lack of legal knowledge it would make sense

Given her lack of intelligence it makes even more sense. She is the worse kind of MP as she has 6th form style level of understanding about society.

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