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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sex Matters - Hampstead Heath Ponds -

720 replies

SexRealismBeliefs · 15/12/2025 18:42

Sex Matters, a charity that campaigns for single-sex rights, will argue that the City of London Corporation is breaching equality law by allowing trans women to use Kenwood Ladies’ Pond on Hampstead Heath.

Hearing this Wednesday.

https://www.thetimes.com/article/cceca8ca-4167-4b04-875a-40ddacfea782?shareToken=e9fe25a546d20835f1a5a66564cbf27b

Hampstead women’s pond sued over transgender access

Sex Matters claims that the City of London Corporation is defending a policy that defies the Supreme Court ruling on single-sex services

https://www.thetimes.com/article/cceca8ca-4167-4b04-875a-40ddacfea782?shareToken=e9fe25a546d20835f1a5a66564cbf27b

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OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 29/01/2026 18:30

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

IwantToRetire · 29/01/2026 18:28

If the arguement is that it is a membership organisation and can then say the EA doesn't apply, why was the consultation open?

But on the other hand if non members can swim there, are they saying that their facilities are open to members of the public but must accept what the members say the rules are.

Sadly unless there was a significant boycott of the "Women's" Pond they wont budge.

Even if a large number of local women said they felt exculded by the trans inclusive position they could be fobbed off by being told they aren't a public service provider.

I think that the fact that Sex Matters were said to not have status is important.

Presumably the Committee feels the responses to the consultation justify their decision.

ie they have allowed both members and no members to have a voice.

I think this is a sort of illustration of what the future holds. There will be more and more situations where institutions will conduct some sort of consultation to show that the majority that trans inclusive is okay, and biological women only is one a minority that there is no obligation should be catered to.

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 29/01/2026 18:27

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

BrokenSunflowers · 29/01/2026 18:20

PassTheHanky · 29/01/2026 18:14

CoL's barrister today put the argument (one among many) that since the division is by gender identity, it's not trying to be a separate sex service.

I'm definitely not a legal bod but I thought the law depended on definitions (e.g. sex = biological sex) and I've yet to see a legally agreed definition of what 'gender identity' actually means?

You would have to show that having a pool for ‘feminine gender’ did not discriminate against men by, for example, disproportionately excluding men compared to women.

PassTheHanky · 29/01/2026 18:14

CoL's barrister today put the argument (one among many) that since the division is by gender identity, it's not trying to be a separate sex service.

I'm definitely not a legal bod but I thought the law depended on definitions (e.g. sex = biological sex) and I've yet to see a legally agreed definition of what 'gender identity' actually means?

BrokenSunflowers · 29/01/2026 18:09

RanchRat · 29/01/2026 17:42

Seems most of the users are happy with the status quo.

“Most people who are happy with discriminate against women are happy to discriminate against women”

FallenSloppyDead2 · 29/01/2026 18:07

Kemi Badenoch on X:

The Supreme Court provided clarity a year ago: sex means biological sex. Men do not belong in female-only facilities. To give organisations certainty, the Government must publish the EHRC guidance. Until they do, the privacy, dignity and safety of women will remain at risk.

x.com/KemiBadenoch/status/2016864449764745234

plantcomplex · 29/01/2026 18:00

I wonder if Chris works for the BBC.

Another2Cats · 29/01/2026 17:48

ConstanzeMozart · 29/01/2026 16:50

We don't have a good precedent for "there can't be a bio women+trans women" pond yet. There's no judgement that makes it explicit. Doesn't the WI case (shout-out to @Another2Cats and her DH!) speak to that? I thought that if you allow some men (here, TIMs) into a facility or service you can't disallow other men (men who aren't TIMs) or it's discrimination?

CoL's barrister today put the argument (one among many) that since the division is by gender identity, it's not trying to be a separate sex service.
That's fine, I think, as long as they no longer call them the Men's and the Ladies' Ponds.

NB I am fully prepared and willing to be told I'm talking shite here. I get very bogged down and am easily bewildered when it comes to legal stuff.

"CoL's barrister today put the argument (one among many) that since the division is by gender identity, it's not trying to be a separate sex service."

The WI made a similar argument. They said:

"The Defendant is not relying on Schedule 16 EqA to create a single
sex association"

and

"As a membership association, the Defendant is entitled to set a subjective
Membership Criterion if it wishes to do so."

Part of DH's reply to that was around the issue that @BrokenSunflowers mentions above.

There was a sex discrimination case back in 1996 (Smith v Safeway Plc [1996] EWCA Civ J0216-2, [1996] IRLR 456) involving men and women having different uniforms and dress standards at work.

The court held that it was not discrimination to require different uniforms etc because it meant that both sexes had a "conventional" appearance. The judge noted that a code that applied equally to both men and women could still treat one sex less favourably:

“As [counsel for the employers] has pointed out, a code which made identical provisions for men and women but which resulted in one or other having an unconventional appearance, would have an unfavourable impact on that sex being compelled to appear in an unconventional mode. Can there be any doubt that a code which required all employees to have 18-inch hair, earrings and lipstick, would treat men unfavourably by requiring them to adopt an appearance at odds with conventional standards?”

In this example, the treatment complained of is not merely a requirement to wear lipstick, it is a requirement for male employees to dress unconventionally for their sex while female employees are permitted to dress conventionally for their sex.

In the case of the WI, they had a requirement to "live as women". In a similar manner to above, "living as a woman" is not going to be a burden for women as we only need to carry on living as we always have done within the very broad parameters of whatever “live as women” means. Women are not required to alter how they live their lives in any way.

[Please note, I am not in any way equating "wearing lipstick" with "living as women" in any way at all]

In contrast, a requirement that men must “live as women” involves a much greater burden. It involves utterly rejecting a conventional lifestyle, it may also involve the use of drugs and/or surgery.

So, a man is required to live a life outside of any sort of meaningful, conventional understanding of what being a man is. Women just have to go on living as they always have done. Framed like this, a trans-inclusive policy is not neutral as between the sexes and a man is treated less favourably than a woman.

The same would also apply in reverse to a woman who wanted to enter a trans-inclusive men's space.

There's also a complicated argument why this is direct rather than indirect discrimination.

In the CoL case though I think the term they use is anybody who "identifies as a woman". I don't know how much of a difference there is between a requirement to "live" as a woman and a requirement to "identify" as a woman.
.

Another thing to consider, I believe that a pp mentioned about there being a constitution and it mentioning men and women. This is another area to look at.

The CoL may argue that the meaning of the word 'women' has changed since whenever the constitution was written so as to include trans-identifying men.

And, it is true, that the meanings of words or what is included within a concept or category (women in this case), can change over time. The concept of ‘cruel and unusual punishments’ has not changed over the years since the Bill of Rights 1689, but many punishments which were not then thought to fall within that category would now be held to do so.

But what you cannot do is to construe a word to mean something conceptually different from what contemporary evidence shows must have been intended at the time.

To try and include a group (men) that is conceptually different from the ordinary, accepted, meaning of “women” is not possible without expressly altering the constitution to reflect that change (or so my DH argued).

Greyskybluesky · 29/01/2026 17:45

RanchRat · 29/01/2026 17:42

Seems most of the users are happy with the status quo.

It's not most of the users though, is it?

It's most of the respondents. Very different.

RanchRat · 29/01/2026 17:42

Seems most of the users are happy with the status quo.

MyAmpleSheep · 29/01/2026 17:38

This reply has been deleted

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

To amplify your point: if unlawful discrimination was in any sense already "unpopular" there wouldn't need to be a law against it. The law is very much there to protect minorities with "unpopular" opinions.

I always feel you can tell a lot about societies (historical and present-day ones) by the things they have to outlaw, and the penalties put in place for transgressors.

teawamutu · 29/01/2026 17:29

Babyboomtastic · 29/01/2026 17:24

They 'identified' as swimmers of the pool I expect 😂.

In the progressive sense, ie isn't but wants everyone to pretend?

Yes.

Babyboomtastic · 29/01/2026 17:24

Easytoconfuse · 29/01/2026 16:07

Did you perhaps mean to say 'most of whom claim to live in the area and have swum there?' No steps were taken to verify identity of those completing the survey, which is amazingly common when someone wants to ensure their vote goes a certain way.

They 'identified' as swimmers of the pool I expect 😂.

Stopbringingmicehome · 29/01/2026 17:18

I filled in the CoL consultation , I found it long and confusing even with the guidance provided by sex matters. I'm not surprised about the results as it was engineered to be opaque

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 29/01/2026 17:14

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

MyAmpleSheep · 29/01/2026 17:11

ConstanzeMozart · 29/01/2026 16:50

We don't have a good precedent for "there can't be a bio women+trans women" pond yet. There's no judgement that makes it explicit. Doesn't the WI case (shout-out to @Another2Cats and her DH!) speak to that? I thought that if you allow some men (here, TIMs) into a facility or service you can't disallow other men (men who aren't TIMs) or it's discrimination?

CoL's barrister today put the argument (one among many) that since the division is by gender identity, it's not trying to be a separate sex service.
That's fine, I think, as long as they no longer call them the Men's and the Ladies' Ponds.

NB I am fully prepared and willing to be told I'm talking shite here. I get very bogged down and am easily bewildered when it comes to legal stuff.

You're not talking shite at all. But the matter hasn't come up in front of a court yet. The WI conceded the argument without a judge having to opine on it.

You are articulating a cogent, consistent and reasonable interpretation of the law. But no judge (the cadre of people who need to agree) has signed their name to it yet. That's what I mean by "we don't have a good precedent."

BrokenSunflowers · 29/01/2026 16:56

CoL's barrister today put the argument (one among many) that since the division is by gender identity, it's not trying to be a separate sex service.

As ‘gender’ is highly correlated with sex, discriminating on the basis of gender would amount unlawful sex discrimination.

ConstanzeMozart · 29/01/2026 16:50

MyAmpleSheep · 17/12/2025 18:38

Surely the only possible outcomes can be a protected bio female pond, or three mixed ponds, since by law there can't be a bio women+trans women pond?

We don't have a good precedent for "there can't be a bio women+trans women" pond yet. There's no judgement that makes it explicit.

CoL's barrister today put the argument (one among many) that since the division is by gender identity, it's not trying to be a separate sex service.

We don't have a good precedent for "there can't be a bio women+trans women" pond yet. There's no judgement that makes it explicit. Doesn't the WI case (shout-out to @Another2Cats and her DH!) speak to that? I thought that if you allow some men (here, TIMs) into a facility or service you can't disallow other men (men who aren't TIMs) or it's discrimination?

CoL's barrister today put the argument (one among many) that since the division is by gender identity, it's not trying to be a separate sex service.
That's fine, I think, as long as they no longer call them the Men's and the Ladies' Ponds.

NB I am fully prepared and willing to be told I'm talking shite here. I get very bogged down and am easily bewildered when it comes to legal stuff.

SinnerBoy · 29/01/2026 16:49

Christinapple · Today 13:31

The courts have thrown out Maya's case.

That's the sort of febrile nonsense we've come to love and expect from you, Chris!

LastTrainsEast · 29/01/2026 16:43

MyAmpleSheep · 17/12/2025 18:38

Surely the only possible outcomes can be a protected bio female pond, or three mixed ponds, since by law there can't be a bio women+trans women pond?

We don't have a good precedent for "there can't be a bio women+trans women" pond yet. There's no judgement that makes it explicit.

CoL's barrister today put the argument (one among many) that since the division is by gender identity, it's not trying to be a separate sex service.

MyAmpleSheep

"We don't have a good precedent for "there can't be a bio women+trans women" pond yet. There's no judgement that makes it explicit"

I hope someone else explains that we do but I'm going to explain why Transwomen should pray that it never changes.

I open a shop and say it's for bio women but men who are happy to be male can come in too.

So in effect all women including transmen and all men other than those who identify as women.

Others like the idea and it spreads to gyms, restaurants, supermarkets, schools, housing and all hospital trusts. Pretty soon a trans-identifying man can't get on a bus, get a job, a home or any medical treatment at all.

Effectively banning transwomen from all public life the way they often claim they have been.

But we won't because we're civilised and we can't because the law forbids it. Just as it forbids "bio women+trans women"

ConstanzeMozart · 29/01/2026 16:39

teawamutu · 29/01/2026 15:52

I think they might need to change the constitution, too. Iirc it does specify mens' and ladies' swimming.

Interesting. I can imagine a legal argument about whether the constitution's use of the terms 'mens' and 'ladies' means those terms in the sense of the SC ruling.

FWSsupporter · 29/01/2026 16:38

66% were opposed to making all the ponds mixed sex! That seems a bizarre figure if 86% agreed with keeping the ponds trans inclusive.

I would rather an independent 3rd party had done the survey.

I agree that it should be regular users of the ponds who individually lodge claims.

Greyskybluesky · 29/01/2026 16:11

I think those women are an inconvenience and an impediment at the very least, @ArabellaScott

ArabellaScott · 29/01/2026 16:07

BrokenSunflowers · 29/01/2026 16:04

If they had an issue, they wouldn’t swim there.

Right. Like the time I raised the subject of a creche being potentially useful for mothers who wanted to attend a thing and was told it was unnecessary, there were no mothers attending.

I guess in the minds of the trans inclusive, all the rape survivors and religious women are just nasty bigots who dont deserve access anyway.

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