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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

DH -v- The WI, Thread 2

703 replies

Another2Cats · 22/07/2025 07:33

@RareGoalsVerge rightly pointed out (thank you) on my previous thread that it was getting near the limit and that I should start a second thread, so this is it.

This is a link to the first thread:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5333650-an-update-to-the-wi-announcement-thread-my-dh-just-got-a-reply-to-his-application-to-join-them

So, a recap.

DH has long had an interest in a couple of activities that were only offered locally by the WI. Obviously, it never crossed his mind to try and join as the WI is a woman only organisation - or so he thought.

But then, following the FWS case, the WI made an announcement that they would continue accepting trans identifying men (TIM) as members.

I suggested to DH that he could now join the WI and jokingly said (although it wasn't really funny, I'm not good at jokes) that he wouldn't have to bother with a wig and lippy any more.

So DH applied to join the local federation and was rejected.

Various things then happened and DH is now bringing a sex discrimination claim against the WI.

The WI instructed a big Tier 1 London law firm, one of the partners of which then called DH and explained that they would be relying on section 158, Equality Act and invited him to withdraw his claim.

After that they sent a letter to DH stating that in addition to the section 158 defence it was also the case that the WI "does not purport to establish single sex membership within the meaning of the EqA"

They went on to say:

"As such, it is free to define “women who have reached the Age of Majority” within its Membership Rules as it pleases, as long as its definition is not discriminatory. As we explain below, the definition “women who live as women, including transgender women” is not discriminatory."

They also said that their membership policy does not discriminate on the grounds of sex or render reassignment and that:

"The Membership Policy does not exclude anyone on these grounds. It allows for the admission of “biological” men as members, as long as they are living as women. It also allows for the admission of people who are not trans, as long as they are living as women."
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So that is where we are as of today. The next step in the process will be in early August so there probably won't be any substantive update to the thread until then.

But, as I said earlier, even though I don't always reply to every post I do read every single comment (often more than once) and having people take an interest really does make a difference. Thank you.
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PS In their letter, they put quotation marks around the word biological - "biological" (see above). Both DH and I were rather confused by this and thought that they were perhaps quoting him in the Particulars of Claim, but DH hadn't used that term.

On looking at the letter in more detail, the answer was found in one of the footnotes. They said:

2 Where references are made to “biological” sex in in this letter, quotation marks are used to make it clear that we refer to the term as used by the Supreme Court in FWS, to mean sex as recorded at birth. This is not a term that NFWI would otherwise use itself, because sex (including the sex of trans and intersex people) is not binary in this way.

[emphasis added]

Well, it's going to be interesting to hear that point argued in court. DH did make a point in the Particulars of Claim to keep referring to "men with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment", perhaps this annoyed them a bit?

An update to the WI Announcement thread. My DH just got a reply to his application to join them. | Mumsnet

This is not a thread about a thread, but recently there was a thread about the Womens Institute announcement that they would not be implementing the S...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5333650-an-update-to-the-wi-announcement-thread-my-dh-just-got-a-reply-to-his-application-to-join-them

OP posts:
Thread gallery
24
Another2Cats · 11/08/2025 07:07

DarlingHoldMyHand · 10/08/2025 19:57

So on the s158 defence, it's interesting that they are attempting to shoehorn this into all 3 limbs of s158.

First limb
Covers situations where it is reasonably thought that "(a) persons who share a protected characteristic suffer a disadvantage connected to the characteristic," and positive action is taken as a proportionate means of meeting the aim of "enabling or encouraging persons who share the protected characteristic to overcome or minimise that disadvantage,"

What I find thoroughly bizarre here is that they seem to be suggesting that it's the other provisions of the Equality Act itself which creates the disadvantage, and s158 should be used to overcome it. They say that transwomen face exclusion from activities for women and girls (both pre- and post-transition) because as males for the purposes of the EA2010 they are not permitted to access single sex spaces and activities.

All legislation should be interpreted purposively - i.e. in line with Parliament's intentions. The Supreme Court concluded in FWS that Parliament had intended for groups to be able to restrict their membership on the basis of biological sex. It cannot be right that Parliament would have chosen to include single sex provisions, and known that this would mean the exclusion of transwomen, but have intended that this would be addressed by using s158 to create single gender provisions via the back door. If Parliament had wanted single gender provisions as an option, they would have simply included those as an option alongside the single sex provisions. This cannot be the kind of disadvantage that s158 is intended to cover.

It also doesn't seem entirely clear to me how their actions are a proportionate means intended to overcome or minimise that disadvantage. For example, they point to poor mental health, but the WI isn't a therapy group intended to address mental health issues.

Second limb
Covers situations where it is reasonably thought that "(b)persons who share a protected characteristic have needs that are different from the needs of persons who do not share it," and positive action is taken as a proportionate means of meeting the aim of "meeting those needs"

The needs they point to are:
(i) accessing environments where they can feel included among other people living with the same gender as them; and
(ii) accessing opportunities that they may have been of felt excluded from as a result of being trans.

As I think you've noted before OP, this is odd because transwomen and women do not share a protected characteristic. And again it raises the same question of why would Parliament not have included single gender provisions if it had intended for these purported "needs" to be able to be met in this way.

The "opportunities" but is particularly strange. At first I wondered what "opportunities" this referred to, and then I noticed this further down:
"The WI offers trans women access to practical and educational opportunities that they have not been or felt able to access. Most directly, the WI enables and encourages trans women to access the opportunities and activities offered by WIs."

So transwomen have a purported "need" to access activities offered by the WI to women. How is that need any different to your DH's needs? Both will be excluded from organisations offering those activities to women that rely on the SSE, but the basis of such exclusion is the protected characteristic of sex not because of being trans. Are they saying that transwomen can only do these activities in a feminine environment whereas your DH would be happy in a men's or mixed sex group? Again, it just seems illogical to say that transwomen have a need to not be excluded from women's groups - it's not the kind of "need" that s158 is aimed at. The explanatory notes give the example of supplementary maths classes for underperforming students who share a protected characteristic.

Third limb
Covers situations where it is reasonably thought that "(c)participation in an activity by persons who share a protected characteristic is disproportionately low" and positive action is taken as a proportionate means of meeting the aim of "enabling or encouraging persons who share the protected characteristic to participate in that activity."

They claim that:
"(c) Trans women have disproportionately low participation in certain activities. These activities include:
(i) educational opportunities;
(ii) professions and jobs; and
(iii) roles in public life."

I would love to see their evidence for this as I am very skeptical of this claim, and they will need some evidence if they want to rely on this provision.

Again, it doesn't seem to me to be what s158 is aimed at in any event. It's normally used where a service provider offers generic activities but notices that it has low participation from certain groups and so decides to offer additional activities aimed at encouraging participation from that underrepresented group. There are some examples here - see eg page 141 https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/servicescode_0.pdf

Are they going to kick transwomen out of the WI if the participation stats in those areas increase?

None of this makes sense. And they need to show that their actions are proportionate in any event which seems a difficult task!

DH has had the defence for several days now and has gone through a very similar thought process:

"None of this makes sense. And they need to show that their actions are proportionate in any event which seems a difficult task!"

You've expressed things much more clearly than DH ever could (thank you)

OP posts:
DarlingHoldMyHand · 10/08/2025 22:44

Another2Cats · 09/08/2025 10:47

As to their claims that this is a lawful positive action under Section 158, I did a long post on that on the previous thread (see my first post on this thread for a link to the first thread). So I won’t repeat that here.

But I will just add, that the WI argue that any woman who becomes a member of the WI must accept TiM as members:

“WI members choose to associate with each other on the basis that they welcome and include anyone who lives as a woman, whatever their recorded sex at birth (“the Membership Criterion”).”

Hmm, I wonder just how many women are aware of that when they sign up?

Going further, I wonder how many WI members are aware that they are expected to offer “support” and “acceptance” to validate the feelings of TiM to help improve their mental health?
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But there is one big thing that is overlooked in the defence (whether deliberately or not). It is that the WI is a charity with a constitution. Well, actually, it’s several thousand separate charities all of which are required to have the constitution that the NFWI provide for them.
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Please forgive my step into the history of the WI here but I found it very interesting.

The first WI group in the UK was set up in 1915 and then the national governing body (the NFWI) was set up in 1917. I’m not too sure when they first became a registered charity but the NFWI reorganised as a charitable company limited by guarantee in 1990.

Prior to that, from 1948 the objects of the WI were:

“The main purpose of the Women's Institute movement is to improve and develop conditions of rural life. It seeks to give to all countrywomen the opportunity of working together through the Women's Institute organisation, and of putting into practice those ideals for which it stands.”

Up until 1965 they actually had a rule that local WIs could only be formed in places with a population of less than 4,000.

The constitution was then changed in 1970 and it’s interesting reading the governing document from back in 1990 when the NFWI became an incorporated organisation. In the 1990 document it states that “The objects are unchanged”, which is in relation to the 1970 constitution:

“The National Federation is established to provide an organisation with the object of enabling countrywomen to take an effective part in the improvement and development of the conditions of rural life and to make provision to advance their education in citizenship, in public questions both national and international, in music, drama and other cultural subjects, and also to secure training for them, in all branches of agriculture, handicrafts, home economics, health and social welfare.

It exists to give all Women the opportunity of working together through the Women’s Institute organisation, and of putting into practice those ideals for which it stands.”

In case you’re wondering, “countrywomen” were defined in the 1970s and into the 1990s as:

“Countrywomen means women living in rural areas and women living elsewhere who are interested in the promotion of the arts, crafts, and sciences associated with rural life”

There was a further minor change in the constitution in 2002 but then there was a very big change in 2013. This change brought in a number of different objects which I thought that they might rely on in the Defence but they haven’t mentioned that.
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The WI argue that they have a separate EDI policy that allows them to alter the meaning of the word “women” in their constitution.

However, a policy is separate and distinct from the constitution. The constitution focuses on the charity's purpose, membership and governance, while policies address specific areas of activity as well as legal and regulatory compliance.

If the policy had been incorporated by reference into the constitution then what the WI is arguing would be correct. But the constitution does not reference any other policy and so it is a stand alone document. Indeed the current constitution does not mention the words “equality”, “diversity” or “inclusion” anywhere within it.

If the constitution had said something like “The WI will follow its most current EDI policy” then that would have effect. But the constitution doesn’t say that.
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Even if they were to try and argue that the meaning of the word “women” in the constitution includes anyone who sees themselves as living as a woman, regardless of the EDI policy not being incorporated, then I still don’t see how they could do that.

Up until 2002 membership was restricted to “countrywomen”. That was gradually expanded to include all women by 2013. The “concept” or “category” of WI membership has expanded from one group of women to all women through express changes in the wording of the constitution.

Even without express changes in wording though, it is possible for what is included in a concept or category (women in this case) to change over time.

The classic example of this is the Bill of Rights 1688 that forbade “cruel and unusual punishments”. The concept of “cruelty” is the same today as it was then but, due to changes in social standards, punishments that wouldn’t have been considered cruel in 1688 will be regarded so today.

Or the concept of a child’s “welfare”. The word was used in the Guardianship of Infants Act 1925, now the Children Act 1989. The concept of welfare is, no doubt, the same today as it was in 1925 but the contents of that concept (what “welfare” actually looks like in a practical way), is to be judged today by the standards of reasonable men and women in 2025 – not the standards of their great great grandparents a 100 years ago or their parents back in 1989.

However, this does not mean that you can construe the language of the WI constitution to mean something conceptually different from what was intended. To try and include a group (men) that is conceptually different from the ordinary, accepted, meaning of “women”, seems to me to not be possible without expressly altering the constitution to reflect that change.
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So, these are my thoughts, anyone else have any thoughts?

I might be completely wrong as I'm no expert on charity law, but if a charity is not complying with their own constitution isn't it the usual route of action a complaint to the Charity Commission? I am struggling to work out how those issues would fit in in the context of a discrimination claim if they are not relying on a s193 defence.

DarlingHoldMyHand · 10/08/2025 19:57

So on the s158 defence, it's interesting that they are attempting to shoehorn this into all 3 limbs of s158.

First limb
Covers situations where it is reasonably thought that "(a) persons who share a protected characteristic suffer a disadvantage connected to the characteristic," and positive action is taken as a proportionate means of meeting the aim of "enabling or encouraging persons who share the protected characteristic to overcome or minimise that disadvantage,"

What I find thoroughly bizarre here is that they seem to be suggesting that it's the other provisions of the Equality Act itself which creates the disadvantage, and s158 should be used to overcome it. They say that transwomen face exclusion from activities for women and girls (both pre- and post-transition) because as males for the purposes of the EA2010 they are not permitted to access single sex spaces and activities.

All legislation should be interpreted purposively - i.e. in line with Parliament's intentions. The Supreme Court concluded in FWS that Parliament had intended for groups to be able to restrict their membership on the basis of biological sex. It cannot be right that Parliament would have chosen to include single sex provisions, and known that this would mean the exclusion of transwomen, but have intended that this would be addressed by using s158 to create single gender provisions via the back door. If Parliament had wanted single gender provisions as an option, they would have simply included those as an option alongside the single sex provisions. This cannot be the kind of disadvantage that s158 is intended to cover.

It also doesn't seem entirely clear to me how their actions are a proportionate means intended to overcome or minimise that disadvantage. For example, they point to poor mental health, but the WI isn't a therapy group intended to address mental health issues.

Second limb
Covers situations where it is reasonably thought that "(b)persons who share a protected characteristic have needs that are different from the needs of persons who do not share it," and positive action is taken as a proportionate means of meeting the aim of "meeting those needs"

The needs they point to are:
(i) accessing environments where they can feel included among other people living with the same gender as them; and
(ii) accessing opportunities that they may have been of felt excluded from as a result of being trans.

As I think you've noted before OP, this is odd because transwomen and women do not share a protected characteristic. And again it raises the same question of why would Parliament not have included single gender provisions if it had intended for these purported "needs" to be able to be met in this way.

The "opportunities" but is particularly strange. At first I wondered what "opportunities" this referred to, and then I noticed this further down:
"The WI offers trans women access to practical and educational opportunities that they have not been or felt able to access. Most directly, the WI enables and encourages trans women to access the opportunities and activities offered by WIs."

So transwomen have a purported "need" to access activities offered by the WI to women. How is that need any different to your DH's needs? Both will be excluded from organisations offering those activities to women that rely on the SSE, but the basis of such exclusion is the protected characteristic of sex not because of being trans. Are they saying that transwomen can only do these activities in a feminine environment whereas your DH would be happy in a men's or mixed sex group? Again, it just seems illogical to say that transwomen have a need to not be excluded from women's groups - it's not the kind of "need" that s158 is aimed at. The explanatory notes give the example of supplementary maths classes for underperforming students who share a protected characteristic.

Third limb
Covers situations where it is reasonably thought that "(c)participation in an activity by persons who share a protected characteristic is disproportionately low" and positive action is taken as a proportionate means of meeting the aim of "enabling or encouraging persons who share the protected characteristic to participate in that activity."

They claim that:
"(c) Trans women have disproportionately low participation in certain activities. These activities include:
(i) educational opportunities;
(ii) professions and jobs; and
(iii) roles in public life."

I would love to see their evidence for this as I am very skeptical of this claim, and they will need some evidence if they want to rely on this provision.

Again, it doesn't seem to me to be what s158 is aimed at in any event. It's normally used where a service provider offers generic activities but notices that it has low participation from certain groups and so decides to offer additional activities aimed at encouraging participation from that underrepresented group. There are some examples here - see eg page 141 https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/servicescode_0.pdf

Are they going to kick transwomen out of the WI if the participation stats in those areas increase?

None of this makes sense. And they need to show that their actions are proportionate in any event which seems a difficult task!

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/servicescode_0.pdf

Silverbirchleaf · 10/08/2025 18:56

I asked, and they weren’t forthcoming with a definition or criteria.

MarvellousMonsters · 10/08/2025 18:17

WhatAMessWales · 22/07/2025 09:53

@Another2Cats Have they given any criteria of how your DH would have to 'live as a woman' in order to qualify to attend meetings? (Apologies, I haven't read the full previous thread.)

Would he have to live as a woman all the time, or just for meetings? What does it involve? Just saying 'I am a woman'? Or is there a checklist of 'lady things'?

Can someone publish the checklist please so I can make sure I’m doing it right…..

KnottyAuty · 10/08/2025 17:58

DarlingHoldMyHand · 10/08/2025 17:25

Does anyone else find it quite funny that the EHRC are still using the WI as an example of a charity which restricts opportunities to the female sex only?

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/guidance/business/guidance-businesses/equality-law-voluntary-and-community/exceptions-charities-and

Exceptions for charities
If you are a charity you are allowed to restrict your benefits (which include the services you offer) to people with a particular protected characteristic if:
that is included in your charitable instrument, and either
it is objectively justified, or
it is done to prevent or compensate for disadvantage linked to the protected characteristic.
A charitable instrument is the document establishing or governing a charity. The charitable instrument usually sets out the charity’s purposes, how its income can be spent and generally how the charity will operate.
For example:
The Women’s Institute is a charity which provides educational opportunities only to women.

Edited

I assume the lawyer working on the defence will struggle with the WI being used as the example for protected Sss - but it’s marvellous for OP’s case 😎

JellySaurus · 10/08/2025 17:56

The WI, which appears to have changed its objectives from providing educational opportunities for women to providing affirmation for men. Only certain men, of course.

DarlingHoldMyHand · 10/08/2025 17:25

Does anyone else find it quite funny that the EHRC are still using the WI as an example of a charity which restricts opportunities to the female sex only?

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/guidance/business/guidance-businesses/equality-law-voluntary-and-community/exceptions-charities-and

Exceptions for charities
If you are a charity you are allowed to restrict your benefits (which include the services you offer) to people with a particular protected characteristic if:
that is included in your charitable instrument, and either
it is objectively justified, or
it is done to prevent or compensate for disadvantage linked to the protected characteristic.
A charitable instrument is the document establishing or governing a charity. The charitable instrument usually sets out the charity’s purposes, how its income can be spent and generally how the charity will operate.
For example:
The Women’s Institute is a charity which provides educational opportunities only to women.

DarlingHoldMyHand · 10/08/2025 17:21

NoBinturongsHereMate · 10/08/2025 17:08

As an association, the WI comes under a different section of the EA than a service provider or employer.

But they still have to either be fully mixed sex, or be single sex by using the SSE.

A GRC isn't needed for a passport in the 'acquired gender'. You can change your passport, NHS records, and I think driving licence without one. It is needed for a new birth certificate, and for marriage and death certificates in the acquired gender.

You're right NoBinturongsHereMate about it being the membership provisions generally, but if WI provide any services (eg educational services) then the service provider provisions will be relevant.

KnottyAuty · 10/08/2025 17:19

EyesOpening · 10/08/2025 14:57

In OP's update post yesterday, I've just noticed this
"but women (as defined under the EqA) who choose to live as men are excluded by the Defendant’s membership rules."
except from their introduction to their
Equality, Diversity and Inclusion policy, they say
"The WI is an inclusive, supportive and progressive organisation for all women with a diverse membership of over 180,000 members." (my bold)
"The WI is open to all women. It welcomes and celebrates a diverse cross-section of women, offering a space where they can be themselves surrounded by other supportive women." (their bold).

www.thewi.org.uk/about-us/wi-key-messages/equality-diversity-inclusion-policy

Thanks for flagging this.
In refusing TIWs they simultaneously break their constitutional promise to be open to all women, whilst breaking their constitutional aim of positive action to support trans people (because only TIMs count apparently).
That’s a major hole in their defense

NoBinturongsHereMate · 10/08/2025 17:08

As an association, the WI comes under a different section of the EA than a service provider or employer.

But they still have to either be fully mixed sex, or be single sex by using the SSE.

A GRC isn't needed for a passport in the 'acquired gender'. You can change your passport, NHS records, and I think driving licence without one. It is needed for a new birth certificate, and for marriage and death certificates in the acquired gender.

FeedbackProvider · 10/08/2025 17:07

My (non-lawyer) opinion:

They can’t run a mixed sex service with “lives as a woman” as an entry criterion: that is overt sex discrimination against men.

They can’t successfully claim that a service where members are both male and female is single-sex to claim the single sex defence to sex discrimination because it’s not a single-sex group.

They can’t successfully claim that positive action for trans people is a defence to a claim of sex discrimination against men, because the comparison group for the sex discrimination claim is women members, not the trans people in the positive action group.

They can’t claim that the positive action makes the service single sex. There’s no indication in the legislation that positive action has any such effect.

They can’t claim that positive action provides a defence against any and all claims of discrimination. That would be absurd.

In summary, you’ve won your case. Congratulations!

Pleasealexa · 10/08/2025 17:00

WI members choose to associate with each other on the basis that they welcome and include anyone who lives as a woman, whatever their recorded sex at birth (“the Membership Criterion”).”

If you have GC beliefs are you excluded/banned? Does it apply retrospectively?

DarlingHoldMyHand · 10/08/2025 16:07

In case it wasn't clear, I just don't see how they can offer a service which excludes men without relying on the SSE.

DarlingHoldMyHand · 10/08/2025 16:03

Footnote 177: 177 Explanatory Notes to the Equality Act 2010, paragraph 738

And here is the aforementioned paragraph 738 relating to what the SSE permit in the explanatory notes to the EA2010.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/20/7

Examples
738.These exceptions would allow:

  • a cervical cancer screening service to be provided to women only, as only women need the service;
  • a fathers’ support group to be set up by a private nursery as there is insufficient attendance by men at the parents’ group;
  • a domestic violence support unit to be set up by a local authority for women only but there is no men-only unit because of insufficient demand;
  • separate male and female wards to be provided in a hospital;
  • separate male and female changing rooms to be provided in a department store;
  • a massage service to be provided to women only by a female massage therapist with her own business operating in her clients’ homes because she would feel uncomfortable massaging men in that environment.

Equality Act 2010 - Explanatory Notes

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/20/7

DarlingHoldMyHand · 10/08/2025 16:02

I found this from the EHRC quite interesting. Most of it's now out of date on GRCs following the FWS judgment, but the following excerpt still seems to be relevant.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmwomeq/1470/147010.htm

Exceptions allowing services to be provided only to women (or only to men)
The first two relevant exceptions (Schedule 3, Paragraphs 26 and 27) allow service providers to provide separate services for men and women, or to provide services to only men or only women in certain circumstances. The symmetrical nature of the ban on sex discrimination means without these exceptions it would be illegal, for example, to hold women-only sessions at a leisure centre or a new fathers’ support group at a nursery. (my emphasis) ^177

DarlingHoldMyHand · 10/08/2025 15:47

Freysimo · 10/08/2025 15:30

What's the advantage of a trans woman having a GRC after the Supreme Court ruling? You can have passport etc in your "woman name" but you're still not a woman.

It still changes your legal sex/gender for the purposes of most legislation (but significantly not for the purposes of the EA 2010 following FWS)

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/section/9

Gender Recognition Act 2004

An Act to make provision for and in connection with change of gender.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/section/9

Freysimo · 10/08/2025 15:30

What's the advantage of a trans woman having a GRC after the Supreme Court ruling? You can have passport etc in your "woman name" but you're still not a woman.

Arran2024 · 10/08/2025 15:22

People who want Gender Recognition certificates have to prove that they have been living in their affirmed gender for 2 years and have to confirm that they will live in it for the rest of their lives. Some people apply and are turned down. There are other criteria too, but they are much more straightforward - you have to be over 18 and you need a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and two medical reports.

Anyway, people ARE turned down so presumably they haven't persuaded the gov that they are indeed living as / intend to live as a woman/man?

EyesOpening · 10/08/2025 14:57

In OP's update post yesterday, I've just noticed this
"but women (as defined under the EqA) who choose to live as men are excluded by the Defendant’s membership rules."
except from their introduction to their
Equality, Diversity and Inclusion policy, they say
"The WI is an inclusive, supportive and progressive organisation for all women with a diverse membership of over 180,000 members." (my bold)
"The WI is open to all women. It welcomes and celebrates a diverse cross-section of women, offering a space where they can be themselves surrounded by other supportive women." (their bold).

www.thewi.org.uk/about-us/wi-key-messages/equality-diversity-inclusion-policy

Datun · 10/08/2025 14:13

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/08/2025 12:53

I don’t think they can exclude TIFs if a TIF for whatever reason wanted to join. There would be solid arguments that it’s illegal discrimination against women on the grounds of gender reassignment, which wouldn’t apply to men, IMO. IANAL etc.

It's bonkers, isn't it.

TIF: can I join?

WI: no, you're trans.

TIF: that's discriminatory, and anyway transwomen are trans and you let them in.

WI: that's different.

The bottom line is that the women's Institute are trying to make a case for validating men with a female gender identity.

Despite being set up to promote the interests of women, and having to actually exclude them using their own logic.

It really is an example of trans batshittery that we see played out over, and over:

The mantra of transwomen are women, which actually means they are a more special man than any other man ever, and everyone, including women, should bend over backwards to serve them. Including, and sometimes preferably, to their own detriment.

DarlingHoldMyHand · 10/08/2025 14:00

Apologies if you've mentioned this OP but is your DH claiming direct or just indirect discrimination?

I do think you should get proper legal advice but I do wonder if this might be direct even though some men are permitted to join. Men are only permitted to join if they effectively renounce their sex.

If a pub had a "no black people" sign up, that would still be direct race discrimination even if they let a few white-passing black people in. It wouldn't become indirect race discrimination because some people of that race are allowed in. They still have a rule that is directly discriminatory on grounds of race.

The WI have a "no men" rule. That kind of rule (unlike the hypothetical "no black people" rule) can be lawful if the SSE is relied upon, but I understand that you have said that they have confirmed they are not relying on the SSE.

As you may appreciate if it's indirect discrimination then there is a justification defence that can be relied upon whereas that is not relevant in cases of direct discrimination.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/08/2025 12:53

WandaSiri · 10/08/2025 12:35

I know you have your Positive Action response covered, OP, but just wanted to add to general chat that I don't see how the leadership could lawfully exclude TiFs from the positive action (and why do they want to? Well, I suppose we all know why!). Iirc you can take positive action for the benefit of women, or for black/Jewish/Muslim/disabled people. One protected characteristic. Sex and GR are two separate PCs.

There is nothing that they are shut out of - anybody can make jam or collages or start a book club or whatever. The Positive Action defence seems to be basically claiming that not being categorised as women is the disadvantage, but it's not a disadvantage because no men are categorised as women under anti-discrimination legislation. I can't see a court accepting that TiM can't associate with women in normal life.

Edited for typo

Edited

I don’t think they can exclude TIFs if a TIF for whatever reason wanted to join. There would be solid arguments that it’s illegal discrimination against women on the grounds of gender reassignment, which wouldn’t apply to men, IMO. IANAL etc.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/08/2025 12:49

@ChipKing love the username 😂

WandaSiri · 10/08/2025 12:39

ChipKing · 10/08/2025 11:47

I would love to see their criteria for "living as a woman" but I suspect there's a dash of transubstantiation involved after application of lipstick and tilting of the head.

I don't think they have formal criteria. I suspect they are just trying to put off men who don't claim to be women and women who oppose genderwoo.