New sports club at DC’s high school only open to LGBTQ+ pupils and their allies

How does it work with protected religious beliefs? Surely it's exclusionary towards children from particular religious backgrounds? Would that trump gender beliefs?

Even if they wanted to secretly join they could face conflict at home if it was discovered they were attending an 'LGBTQ+ and allies' group.

I'm trying to think of a comparison such as computer club. Something that might typically attract quieter/geekier/neurodiverse kids. However it's the only computer club in the school. And it's framed as LGBTQ+ only (plus 'allies'). And that's a defining characteristic of the group, the members don't leave their beliefs at the door and get on with the activity. It's as much about identity as it is computers.

As a quiet, LGB supporting teen the vocal (often obnoxious, I'm sorry) NB/trans/'queer' element would've put me right off. I might've gone along once or twice before admitting defeat, as much as I liked computers. In my school I could also see some of the LGB kids getting pissed off with the increasing attention seeking elements, I'm not sure it would've felt inclusive to them either.

Had there been a second, mainstream computer club I'd have had less of an issue and probably ignored the second club.

You know, I hate to break it to you, and FWR and GC feminists may think highly of their own position, but they're really not of a significance where Cibyl "the largest provider of market research and data into students' and graduates' career thinking." can be arsed to manipulate data about lesbians opinions of trans people on a very broad report that looks "at the experiences of young LGBT+ adults in the UK, covering a range of topics from their wellbeing, home life and time in school to their experiences in the world of work, as well as taking into account intersections like faith, race and disability."

I'll add that I'm a lesbian who believes completely in supporting trans rights to be safe and not discriminated against.

But 'support' I suspect involves me accepting that a male person's identity choice is more important than my perception, my right to bodily autonomy and sexuality is conditional on at least convincingly claiming to willing to do men who tell me their identity is of a woman, and surrendering all single sex spaces while accepting no female should have the right to do anything at all, no matter how distressing or intimate, without a male having the right to be present and use the situation (and females) to meet their own needs.

And I'm not. Because I require trans people to support women equally and to not destroy their rights.

So I asked you to explain what "supportive of trans people" means, and you replied "no, not meaningless" and then went on to repeat more of the same stuff you were saying before, without attempting to explain what supportive of trans people means.

Was that deliberate?

Does it mean using their preferred pronouns?
Supporting their inclusion in sports in the correct category for their biological sex?
Supporting their inclusion in sports in whatever category they feel best fits their gender identity?
Supporting their right to change their legal gender?
Supporting their right to live their lives free from harassment?
Supporting their right to use communal showers for the sex they feel they most identify with?
Being open to having sex with them?

I would consider myself supportive of trans people according to some of those criteria and not others, so if you asked me if I was supportive of trans people I would not be able to answer your question without narrowing down what that means more precisely.

Oh I don’t know.
Straight people appropriating gay spaces by identifying as Q and males appropriating women’s spaces, including lesbian spaces, by identifying as women seems to be a big threat to gay and women’s rights to me.

‘Why do LGBTQ+ students need their own safe sports but female rape survivors can't have their own safe rape crisis groups?’

or is it just as simple as both of these should exist?

we’re in a gay parenting social grp - straight families aren’t allowed to join. is that okay or should it not exist unless we let straight families in too???

If you exclude all the ones who'll give you the wrong answer, and then exclusively ask all the ones who'll say what you want, you can prove it beautifully :)

And Nancy Kelley of Stonewall never ever compared same-sex attraction to racism, and Julia Serano didn’t complain in a book about how horrible and uncooperative ‘cis lesbians’ were, and Veronica Ivy didn’t say we should ‘learn to cope’ with heterosexual sex, and nobody ever has said that lesbians who don’t view transwomen as women for ALL purposes are bigots. And nobody tried to stop Jenny’s women only lesbian speed dating group and no lesbian-only social groups have been driven underground for refusing to be mixed sex.

So that’s ok then.

@SirChenjins ’Well, what is it ‘

incant tell if you’re being deliberately obtuse or not.

No, not meaningless; the narrative on Mumsnet FWR tends to frame lesbians and transwomen as having an adversarial relationships - this serves a certain political direction, but of course this is not the reality on the ground.

In this survey lesbians described themselves as 'supportive' or 'very supportive' of trans peoples at higher numbers than any other demographic - it is a comparative exercise to show actually, this falsely portrayed narrative is clearly incorrect, otherwise the figures for lesbians would be lower than all other demographics surveyed, and not, in fact, the highest.

Indeed.

There are multiple posters in this thread who are of the view that there is a need for a specific LGBTQ+ (and allies) sports club to provide a safe space for those students where they will not be subjected to homophobic or transphobic bullying or comments such as "special alphabet people". Fine. They need a safe space. Got it.

But why is it that the same people who need this safe space are so opposed to female rape survivors having their own safe space to discuss their experiences of being raped that they are emailing venues in Brighton asking them not to host such a group because it excludes trans women?

Why do LGBTQ+ students need their own safe sports but female rape survivors can't have their own safe rape crisis groups?

Incidentally,

if you started up a vegan group, and then insisted that veganism must be inclusive of carnivores, and that carnivores are vegans if they say so, and meat IS a vegan food (dodgy science here, clownfish), and vegan has evolved because words evolve in meaning (unless you're too old and stupid), and no one should be gatekeeping words, and if you weren't white/old/female/extreme right wing/martian/ you'd understand that you just have to think what you're told by your betters

And then you shamed and bullied all the vegan members into either eating meat to prove their compliance (obviously at this point there's a flag) or excluded them? Until you had only the carniverous and a few compliants left?

You too could argue that there is absolutely no issue and vegans LOVE eating meat.

Yes, don't worry, there have been some people panic-mongering and fuelling unfounded beliefs that all trans people are out to demand sex with lesbians - but it is just that - panic mongering, and there is a very high level of support from lesbians towards the trans community.

😂

Yes, some people identify as this not happening. They identify as the evidence not existing no matter how many times it's shown to them too. Huge piles of it and they just can't see it or hear it. Women's voices seem to have that effect on them.

The 'high level of support' from homosexual women thrilled to do men is an ever interesting claim, heard it so often. Those claiming it identify too not having ever heard or seen any of the very very obvious issues with this happy statement.

The alleged massive herds of lesbians in favour of all homosexual women doing men (or being raped, killed, excluded, threatened with barbed wire baseball bats, take a look at terfisaslur.com for a bit of an example, you may need counselling afterwards because you've probably never seen such a bunch of extreme disturbing psychopathy in one place) invariably:

• Are all the poster's mates
• Come from groups where all the non co operative actually homosexual women have been forced out or battered into at least saying earnestly and loudly the required statement of loyalty to the flag
• Have a really interesting definition of 'homosexual'
• Will tell you that a woman using the word 'female' or 'homosexual' about herself is a red flag for a non compliant sinner who is damned
• Believe that it is fine to use any label you like if you like the feelz of it regardless of actual reality of definition and if this damages other groups what the hell, it makes you happy
• Will tell you earnestly that they are absolutely not rapey and do not believe in coercive sex, and that women refusing to do a male person on the grounds of her reality not revolving around a male person's thoughts, and expecting a right of defining her own sexuality is a sexual racist who has a social duty and must learn to do penis, or get back in the closet out of sight of decent people.

As you were.

Agreed - some excellent posts by Catiette.

Also finding it interesting how, despite various posts referring to a thread running currently which regards females not being allowed to meet without males, that those posts and that thread generally are being studiously avoided by many posters on this thread. How odd.

What does being supportive of trans people mean?

Unless that is explained, your survey is fairly meaningless.

Yes, don't worry, there have been some people panic-mongering and fuelling unfounded beliefs that all trans people are out to demand sex with lesbians - but it is just that - panic mongering, and there is a very high level of support from lesbians towards the trans community.

"New research by Just Like Us has found that lesbians are the most likely of the whole LGBTQ+ community to be supportive of trans people. Lesbians are the most likely to say they know a trans person (92%), and also the most likely to say they are “supportive” or “very supportive” of trans people (96%). That’s compared to 89% of LGBTQ+ people overall, and just 69% of non-LGBTQ+ people."

https://www.gaytimes.co.uk/originals/lesbians-are-not-anti-trans/

https://www.justlikeus.org/blog/2023/03/31/trans-day-of-visibility-ally-lesbian/

Can we have spaces for those of us who don't want to be subjected to offensive and dehumanising terminology like TERF, cis women or bodies with vaginas, or is that different for some reason?

The L, G or B children are as likely to experience homophobic bullying in an LGBTQ group as they are anywhere else.

I’d have thought lesbian girls would be more likely to experience homophobic bullying in an LGBTQ club. In order to be supportive trans allies - and we all know that’s the priority - they’d have to be open to mixed sex relationships with the trans members.

For as long as there are people who are happy to use sneering terminology like 'special alphabet children' there will be a need and a benefit of spaces for those people who don't wish to be subject to it
Exactly, well said

I agree with catiette on a lot of this, I have no problem with the club/team but I do have a problem with the ‘allies’ bit

allies also suggests that any random can rock up, ‘friends’ would just be friends of the children in the club

For as long as there are people who are happy to use sneering terminology like 'special alphabet children' there will be a need and a benefit of spaces for those people who don't wish to be subject to it.