Suella Braverman statement about police behaviour and TRA police officer response

I think that you have just made my point for me. You can justify blanking the shopkeepers where there is a crime because of effort/reward but you can't justify blanking somebody who complained about a photo being taken for the same effort/reward because you're afraid of a bit of bad PR.

Really?

oldwomanwhoruns
So our Felix is now comparing an old(ish) woman taking a photograph of a sticker to domestic violence??

Not at all - I am saying most people don't phone the police on the first occurrence. They will wait until the until a number of incidents have occurred before phoning.

Brefugee
Again:if you and your force are so perfect (I don't believe it) why aren't you being benchmarked for all other forces?
We have received the message loud and clear. Women, especially I'd older or disabled, cannot rely on the police.

Yet the sanctification surveys from police forces around the country have a high satisfaction rate from the public they serve.

So our Felix is now comparing an old(ish) woman taking a photograph of a sticker to domestic violence??

Get a grip, Felix.

And explain to us why males of a certain 'type' seem to be getting gold-plated service from the police.

JanesLittleGirl
Do we still just tell them we are not taking any further action?
Why not? That is what you do when shopkeepers report low value shoplifting.

I agree - and we should deal with all shop thefts

But then we need more resources to do so - one theft will take an entire shift to complete properly. You will need statements from the shop staff (2-3 hours). CCTV will need seizing and processing, redacting to remove all sensitive information (another 2 hours or so). Crime reports, statements from officers, booking into custody, house searches to recover the outstanding property etc etc

You then have the problem that you have to wait for the shop staff to be made available by the managers of the shop to provide the statements or head office to email the manager the password to access the CCTV systems.

Then you need to arrange a solicitor, interview the suspect, case file completion....

So that will take me the entire shift to sort - for say a theft of a £5 jar of coffee.

Or would you prefer to keep my available for the ongoing domestics violence incidents, missing from homes, suicidal people, burglaries etc etc

MargotBamborough
Of course they are all checked on the system to see if anything else has been reported. Often done and listed on the job before you even see it.

But if its a case that they haven't reported previous incidents, do we automatically doubt them. Most victims of domestic abuse never phone the police until the 15th incident or so. Doesn't mean to say we can automatically believe that they haven't happened.

It could be that the previous incidents have just been noted, not tried to let it affect them, tried to move on - but the last incident was the straw which broke the camels back - so they finally phoned the police.

I think its wrong to ignore previous incidents just because they are being reported later.

So - you do all the checks and there is no history to say that this reporting person has made false accusations in the past. In fact they have reported the damage to their house & car in the past but as there was insufficient evidence at the time, no further action was taken. And they still have not changed their account now they are sat in front of you at the police station.

Is there any consequence against the reporting person - it depends if you can prove that they have lied or not. So if you go and see this older lady and she denies any offences or any kind of harassment - is that enough for you to then prosecute the reporting person for making a false claim? How do you know the older lady is not lying to you? If its one word against another - where do you go from there?

Other offences are of course more serious - which is why things like this tend to just fall onto the 'as & when' queue. Offences such as rapes, sexual assaults, DV's etc etc are a priority and are investigated expeditiously - certainly in our force.

When I was mugged by a man on a motorbike who dragged me 20 metres down the pavement before I let go of my bag, the police showed up four hours after I called them and basically said, "Well he fled the scene so he'll be long gone now."

I don't think they ever actually informed me they wouldn't be taking any action, they just didn't take any action.

This was over 15 years ago so we can't even blame Tory austerity.

Do we still just tell them we are not taking any further action?

Why not? That is what you do when shopkeepers report low value shoplifting.

Assuming this is all hypothetical since as far as we know all the lady who has sparked this discussion did was take a photo of a sticker.

Is it usual for someone to contact the police about a long series of incidents which has led them to the point where they just can't take it any more, without having contacted the police previously about the earlier incidents?

If I were a police officer and someone made a complaint about a woman taking a photo of a sticker and when I didn't immediately leap up to go and arrest her, started to talk about earlier damage to their car, the first question I would ask would be, "Did you report the damage to your car at the time?"

If I were a police officer and someone made a complaint about a woman taking a photo of a sticker, I would be checking the files to see whether this person had a history of making complaints about apparently trivial matters, and if so whether there was any link between the people they had complained about.

To me, this seems to basic due diligence that the police should undertake to try and identify bullshitters before they go knocking on anyone's door over a sticker.

If you went to investigate the woman over a sticker and there turned out to be nothing in it, when the complainer had made a long litany of accusations about her, would there be any consequences for them? If not, why not?

As much as I applaud your commitment to dealing with complaints, as other PP have noted, women who complain to the police about stalking, harassment, sexual assault, rape and domestic violence (all of which I'm sure you will agree are far more serious and distressing than stickers or even cars being damaged) don't seem to be benefiting from the same rigorousness. Some of them have subsequently gone on to be murdered by the person they complained about.

Can you see why some of us are wondering why it is apparently only a very special group of people who seem to benefit from gold plated policing?

Again:if you and your force are so perfect (I don't believe it) why aren't you being benchmarked for all other forces?

We have received the message loud and clear. Women, especially I'd older or disabled, cannot rely on the police.

Brefugee
Also if you are a police officer HOW FUCKING DARE you mention stalking? Something which we know the police brush off with devastating regularity when women report it. How. Dare. You.

Not true - I do loads of cases of stalking & harassment, in fact i would hazard a guess that it possibly one of the more regular offences which our force deals with and arrests for.

SPO's and non molestation orders base most of their evidence around stalking & harassment patterns identified by investigations.

MargotBamborough
Have the person come in, take a statement, ask them to detail every single incident they are talking about, explaining in detail why they are sure that the same person is responsible for all of them.........

Yes - and we do all of this.

But the reporting person is adamant that its all connected or it the same old lady doing the same things time and time again. And its definitely target harassment. Its been going on for months and she is part of a bigger group or maybe getting the other people in the group to do things etc etc.....

They give a clear 10 point description of them, they may even name her - they give observe them from close distance in good light with no obstructions to their view. They may also bring in a witness who provides a statement confirming all of the above. So its not just a feeling.

They appreciate that taking a photo of a sticker/poster in itself is not an offence or issue - but when you add it all to the bigger picture, its just another piece of harassment.

And they continue to state that its causing their life to be miserable etc etc....

Do we still just tell them we are not taking any further action?

Also if you are a police officer HOW FUCKING DARE you mention stalking? Something which we know the police brush off with devastating regularity when women report it. How. Dare. You.

Again. We are talking specifics. It is clear to me you enjoy the shit stirring. I hope you don't do this at work - but it appears to be your personality.

I think anyone who calls the police to whinge about posters and ribbons should be pointed towards therapy.

I would prefer the police to do their proper job properly.

That is all.

I outlined a suggested approach in my later post.

But I would also warn them that if they have no actual evidence that this lady is doing anything wrong and they keep reporting her to the police just because they don't like her, she might well have grounds to complain of harassment herself.

Have the person come in, take a statement, ask them to detail every single incident they are talking about, explaining in detail why they are sure that the same person is responsible for all of them.

If it's just a feeling (I've seen this person around a lot and I'm sure that she's the one doing it, she seems the type) you explain that you can't go round to someone's house without any proof that they were actually involved in a crime.

If they describe "incidents" such as observing this person taking a photo of a sticker and explain that this makes them feel harassed, you gently explain that the crime of harassment requires some kind of ill intention on the part of the person committing it, and that as much as you sympathise with their evident distress, nobody taking a photo of a sticker is going to imagine that in doing so they might be causing distress to a random person, who, unbeknown to them, is believes that the sticker is about them and is incredibly upset to see someone take a photo of it.

You gently explain that even putting the sticker up is neither harassment nor any kind of crime, and that taking a photo of a sticker most certainly isn't either of those things.

You say by all means come in again if you experience a pattern of behaviour actually directed at you by a particular individual which you perceive to be harassment and we will look into it. But we are not going to identify and question a random lady for taking a picture of a sticker. Sorry.

And then you gently suggest that they seek some help for their anxiety.

Gellhell
As I'm not British I find it confusing over that police officer. He insulted the Home Secretary and the police don't arrest him for a hate crime, but they arrest a woman for taking a photograph of a sticker?

A - she wasn't arrested as far as i know
B - has the home secretary made a complaint that she was insulted/harassed by the comment?
C - Was the complaint more than just 'she has taken a photo of a sticker?

MargotNoBamborough
No, I'm saying that you go out and investigate, and when you find out it is literally only a bloody sticker, you definitely do not go round to the sticker photo takers house to make the caller feel something has done, you give the caller a bollocking they will not forget in a hurry for wasting police time.

But what if the reporting person states that its more than just this sticker - its a series of events by this older lady and this sticker is just the tip of the ice berg. And that she is part of a bigger group which is targeting the reporting person. If you visit the older lady, you may find out who the other members of this group are - and i have also had damage to my car etc etc etc

Cailin66 · Yesterday 15:53

As I'm not British I find it confusing over that police officer. He insulted the Home Secretary and the police don't arrest him for a hate crime, but they arrest a woman for taking a photograph of a sticker?

Yes, welcome to Topsy-Turvy Land....

MargotBamborough
Make a vexatious report to the police once, we'll chalk it up to a misunderstanding. Twice and you get a verbal warning. Three times and we will not respond to any complaint you make

What's your definition of a vexatious complainer to the police?

Do we have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the report was false?

Or is it when the prosecution case can not be proved against the suspect - the reporting person is classed as vexatious?

No, I'm saying that you go out and investigate, and when you find out it is literally only a bloody sticker, you definitely do not go round to the sticker photo takers house to make the caller feel something has done, you give the caller a bollocking they will not forget in a hurry for wasting police time.

What part of this is difficult to understand?

Brefugee
"officer officer, I'm all of a flutter because i saw an ancient lezzer take a photo of an anti-trans sticker"
how DO you think that should be handled?

"officer officer, I have a group of people who are making my life a living hell and I am at the point of suicide now. This has been ongoing for sometime and its a targeted campaign against me. I am scared to walk down the street, my life is a living hell. Today they have got an older lady to tamper with a poster which we have placed and this is the final straw for me. I'm sure that this old lady has done several other harassing things against me in the past and she knows exactly what she is doing and is doing it to cause me stress & harassment. I would like some sort of action taken to stop this as I feel as though i am being stalked and harassed by them & her. I have had my car & home damaged several times now which I can not prove who is doing it but i am certain its all related, because its ever since i placed this poster up"

How Do you think that should be handled? - 'we are not bothered with you, get lost!'

MargotBamborough
Yes, but Felix, the person who has reported a non crime committed by a person whose completely reasonable and legal views they happen to disagree with is the person who should not get their way.

But it goes back to depending on what that person has said on their initial call. Presumably, they haven't said "....Hello, I am a vexatious complainer and would like to make a complaint about a lady taking a photo in a public place"

They are going to make the incident seem a lot worse. Or make out that this is an ongoing series of events in which they feel targeted by this person and others which is causing them distress etc etc.

So the call taker may think that is this ongoing harassment which needs to be investigated? Is this a targeted campaign against the caller?

But you're happy for us not to take any notice and write it off at the initial phone call without any kind of investigation, despite what the reporting person is saying to us?

Related topic, but the only question I have about the Sorry Police / Caroline F / Vexatious Crybully is whether they are being Useful Idiots for Fear or for Favour, or just general background multipurpose misogyny.

Yes, but Felix, the person who has reported a non crime committed by a person whose completely reasonable and legal views they happen to disagree with is the person who should not get their way.

Because they have done something wrong, and the other person has not.

Because they mistakenly believe the police are actually the Stasi, there to enforce their belief system on unwilling dissenters, rather than public servants who are paid to keep us all safe.

Because they are wasting public resources reporting these non crimes to the police and expecting you to do something about it, thus hindering your ability to do your actual job, which, in case you need reminding, is to keep us all safe.

Being impartial does not mean you need to go and intimidate people who have done absolutely nothing wrong just so the twat who reported them to you for a non crime feels that something has been done.

The only thing that needs to be done in this situation is that the twat who reported them needs to be put firmly back in their box.

Seriously. Impartiality! I've heard it all now.

If you think Impartiality means you need to pander to the feelings of someone who makes vexatious complaints to the police then you SERIOUSLY need to go on a refresher course about your duties towards the public.

Even I know that's not what your duty of impartiality means, and I'm not claiming to be a bloody copper!

Good grief.