Suella Braverman statement about police behaviour and TRA police officer response

Felix

Firstly look at the headline on this thread , it says police behaviour and the aaTRA response- that's loaded to begin with because it isn't specifically about trans rights , its about Black Lives Matter, taking the knee, dancing at protests , nothing to do solely with trans rights and yet , it fits the narrative here so it's seized upon to berate and besmirch all police , al forces , all cops .

I salute you for your ever optimistic attempts to try and patiently explain police procedures, why incidents are called incidents, what has to happen when someone picks up a phone and calls 101 to report teddy the parrot is harassed by next door sneezing but you my friend are fighting a losing battle

The stance on this board is set in stone

You will never ever change the mind of anyone here with stuff like patience and common sense because all cops are bastards , all useless, all puppets of trans activists , and it does t matter how many times you try to say you haven't had input from stonewall or mermaids , they won't listen , they are the playground equivalent of the bullies who smirk and twiddle their hair chewing their gum while the teacher attempts to establish order in class

You are wasting your time

Go and get into CID where you're dealing with easy stuff like murders , GBH and rape , where you aren't stood in the centre of a bunch of raging idiots arguing about stickers and whether it's a crime , a non rime or a none event where in reality what you'd like to do is scream " get a fucking grip " but knowing that will result in probably both sides making a complaint about you and knowing it takes up valuable time to write up your response to PSD and then taking a further week to edit out the stuff that would definitely get you sacked , well mate , just not worth it

Give me a murder any day over a bunch of people with little to no understanding but who can tell you how to do your job anyway because they know everything better than you , you stupid fool and you smell and everyone hates you anyway and your mum eats poo ner ner na ner ner

Felix , give it up . You can't win in real life , you ain't ever gonna here .

I've just been to Scotland and found a little place called Dull. Apparently it's twinned with a place called Boring somewhere else. Fact.

Oh look, a sealion!

AlisonDonut
We do - rape cases are taken seriously especially where we are.
Immediate response, victim safeguarded and taken to the local sexual offence suite, counselling staff summonsed, medical/forensic team summonsed, scene guards, suspect arrested early and forensically swabbed.

ABE interviews completed, witnesses,. CCTV, CPS case files with specialised CPS lawyers etc etc

These are never just put down on the 'as & when' queue

Its a pity this level of detail is never considered for rape cases.

It's like 'does a chicken have a gender' level of batshittery right now. When a police officer thinks a sticker is being harassed by a woman with a camera...and a sticker called up and reported it.

This sticker seems to have more rights than actual adult human females.

MargotBamborough
Thanks for confirming the pointlessness of non hate crime incidents though. Not a crime, not an emergency, no investigation from the police is required. Someone is just offended. Why the fuckity fuck is this even a thing?

Because if this is a pattern of behaviour from the same individual it needs to be recorded. If they are always at the centre of disturbances involving hatred towards a certain racial group - do you not think this should be recorded somewhere.

If at some point they get arrested for a racially aggravated assault - do you not think the past series of non-crime hate incidents will become relevant - when they are trying to state in their interview that there is no evidence at all that they are racist?

Or should we just ignore all such events and not record them until a crime has occurred. The past hatred incidents toward a racial group are not relevant?

MargotBamborough
The legal position is clear. The course of conduct has to be conduct which the person in question ought to know amounts to harassment of the victim, because a reasonable person would consider it to be so.

It depends on what the 'victim' has said to us then.

Would a reasonable person believe that if this is a series of events which is targeted to the 'victim' - as the 'victim' has stated. And is this latest sticker incident part of that on gong harassment?

That's what the investigation will need to determine and that's what the police will have to investigate.

So, if I stand outside your place of work for 3 hours - would a reasonable person think that this was harassment. Probably not, so the police should not get involved. So am I free to do this all the time, its a public place after all?

If you contact the police and state that after 2 weeks of this, you feel harassed by it - would you be happy for the police to say "...well its a public place and hes free to stand there if he wants."

The course of conduct has to be conduct which the person in question ought to know amounts to harassment of the victim
So, if the police speak to the suspect and they state that they didn't know it was harassing the person, that's enough for you to write the crime off...?

Have you ever been the victim of harassment? Have you considered that small things can add to the harassment of that person and often perpetrators of harassment will use small simple things to continue their campaign - even something simple like saying 'hello' as they walk by on the street can be devastating to a victim.

I'm offended by the huge amount of scrolling I have to do due to repetitive and boring felixplaning

I won't involve the police just yet

😂😂

@BernardBlacksMolluscs
Fabulous photo. Great rockage. I love seascapes. Where is it?

This is not a discussion any more.

Last year I went to an exhibition about the depiction of women in art at the British Museum. At the end of the exhibition there was an interactive feature where visitors could type their comments onto an iPad and the comments would be projected onto the wall and form part of the exhibition.

Someone had written, "Trans women are women. TERFs get in the bin!"

I thought that was offensive and hateful.

If I had called the police, do you think they would have logged it as a non hate crime incident?

Felix. You are talking complete nonsense.

I posted a link to the legislation setting out the offence of harassment upthread.

The legal position is clear. The course of conduct has to be conduct which the person in question ought to know amounts to harassment of the victim, because a reasonable person would consider it to be so.

No reasonable person would consider that taking a picture of a sticker could constitute harassment of a person who happens to be observing the person taking the picture of a sticker.

Thanks for confirming the pointlessness of non hate crime incidents though. Not a crime, not an emergency, no investigation from the police is required. Someone is just offended. Why the fuckity fuck is this even a thing?

BernardBlacksMolluscs

So you're complaining about 'pages of nonsense' yet are happy to add to them with pictures of rocks!!!!!!

Just sayin

Tallisker
Now you're just offensive. We see you.

How am I being offensive exactly - since you're accusing me of it?
BernardBlacksMolluscs was not specific on the 'pages of nonsense'.

And if you think that what I am typing is 'nonsense' then explain why and add to the the discussion.

MargotBamborough
For harassment, its not just the one individual act that has to be an offence, but if its part of a course of conduct.

So if I stand outside your place of work which is a public place. Nobody on the planet would believe that this is causing you any harassment. However, if you stated that this is part of the ongoing course of conduct and that I was doing it deliberately to cause you harassment, alarm and distress - would you be happy for the police just to dismiss it?

I am spoken to and state that I was not intending to cause you harassment by standing there and i was just passing the time of day? And of course I would say that because I don't want to admit that I was doing it to cause your harassment.

If its dismissed as not being harassment - therefore I can stand outside your place of work every day from now on then. Would you be happy with that, if you have stated to police that I have been causing your life to be a living hell recently?

Believe me, I have had loads of successful prosecutions for harassment over things which seem trivial and the public would not view as a problem: sending birthday cards, flowers, walking past the school at pick up times, saying 'hello' as they walk past in the street etc etc.

But when you link it as part of the on going harassment, these minor 'incidents' become very relevant. And often perpetrators of harassment are doing these 'minor' things to tell their victims 'I'm still here!'

A non crime hate incident - is just that. An incident which is not a crime. We have many incidents which we deal with which are not crimes - RTC's, sudden deaths, missing from homes, suicidal people, mental health breakdowns, child protection etc etc. All of these jobs will be closed as a non crime incident.

If the incident has an element of hate towards an individual or individual group - then it will be closed as non crime hate incident.

For example - police get called to a disturbance and it centres around an argument on the street concerning one individual who expresses resentment or a dislike to people following a particular faith. No offences have been disclosed, but it will be recorded as a non crime hate incident.

Now you're just offensive. We see you.

BernardBlacksMolluscs
I keep seeing this thread come up and wondering if there’s an update but nope
just pages of nonsense

That's not a very nice thing to say about MargotBamborough. They are making legitimate points which add to the discussion. As opposed to making references to 'grey rocks'

I keep seeing this thread come up and wondering if there’s an update but nope

just pages of nonsense

I really can’t recommend the griseo petram (grey rock) highly enough

Has anyone seen that clip of Germaine Greer on this subject?

She's just like, "OK so you're offended? So what? Who cares? I don't. Try being an old woman."

I'm offended by the huge amount of scrolling I have to do due to repetitive and boring felixplaning

I won't involve the police just yet

Can you explain what a non hate crime incident is and why the police are devoting resources to them when they don't have enough resources to deal with all the actual crimes that are being committed?

So it caused offence.

OK.

Who cares?

If I start calling the police every time I am offended by a trans activist, are you going to log that as a "non hate crime incident" and send someone out to have a word with them?

Or are you going to tell me to piss off and stop wasting your time?

I would also love to see a test case to see how far that exemption at the bottom about conduct in the course of preventing crime actually protects the police.

So if the police pay another visit to the sticker lady, this time to quiz her about what feminist books she owns, or why she follows JK Rowling on Twitter, given that none of those things are crimes and the police officer might, by your own admission, only be paying her a visit to make the person who complained about her feel that "something is being done" rather than as a genuine attempt to prevent crime, could the police then be guilty of harassment or is that a literal get out of jail free card in the legislation?

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1997/40/section/1

(2)For the purposes of this section [F2or section 2A(2)(c)], the person whose course of conduct is in question ought to know that it amounts to [F3 or involves] harassment of another if a reasonable person in possession of the same information would think the course of conduct amounted to harassment of the other.

Given that no reasonable person on the planet would think that taking a photograph of a sticker in a public place is a course of conduct amounting to the harassment of a person who, unbeknown to them, might be spying on them, I think it's crystal clear that the offence of harassment is not made out here, and the investigating officer should have made that clear to the complainer, ideally using the words "no reasonable person on the planet".

Mmmnotsure
Its a discussion forum and its up to people if they want to post or not.
So long as you stick to the rules of the forum, anyone can post.