What if we rethought gender?

@BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn yeah, interesting too

I suggest you read Gina Rippon: www.ginarippon.com/

How about we challenge the very boring and never ending attempt to make reality go away by burbling. Endlessly.

Bottom line: it doesn't. There's no escaping it. Sorry about that.

@BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn I don’t know a lot about it but apparently our neurons are wired different in some respects

Apart from 'a brain in a woman's head', obviously. And a man can't have one of those.

What is 'a brain like a woman's?

That a man can have a brain like a woman’s

@Ereshkigalangcleg right yeah I’ve watched it now. Was weird when that guy said we’re both men and women

making the brain feminised

Meaning what?

Not really. More that sex doesn't matter at all.

@Ereshkigalangcleg i didn’t watch it all but assume it was that a persons sex is a biological fact but gender isn’t necessarily tied to it

Right about what?

I’ve been learning that it might be caused by us ingesting industrial toxins, making the brain feminised in some men and vice versa. If that’s the case then this video is right

Can you be 'gender' (sex stereotype) non-conforming and also 'cis'? I think to the genderists I might come across as non-binary as I have my haircut at the barber, don't wear makeup, and wear both womens and mens clothes.

Yes, unless they think you're actually trans in denial, they will want to call you "cis".

Can you be 'gender' (sex stereotype) non-conforming and also 'cis'? I think to the genderists I might come across as non-binary as I have my haircut at the barber, don't wear makeup, and wear both womens and mens clothes.

On a similar theme, I was told by a health professional that the reason I didn't think I had a gender identity was because my gender aligned with my sex. I replied that if I did have a belief in gender identity, I would probably actually be "non-binary transfemme" because I'm not "typically female" in every respect. I then qualified that by saying that instead of a gender identity belief, I believe that there are two sexes - and that in accordance with my own belief, I'm a woman.

I then had a later conversation with the same health professional. Interestingly, he completely understood where I was coming from and (I'm not certain) seemed pretty open to the idea that he may not have a gender identity either. I didn't press that point because people come to their own conclusions about what they believe. Nobody can force or compel anyone to believe the same thing as them as belief doesn't work like that.

I was told I must be non binary if I didn't feel I had a gender identity but knew I was a woman because biology.

You can tell your friend isn't particularly au fait with it. If you say that to an actual trans rights activist they will tell you that you can't be non binary either and you have to be "cis".

Quite.

What if those self-recognised startling cultural thinkers had actually had the courtesy to read some second wave feminist writers?

As PPs say, they may well have discovered that this ground has been covered extensively by actual scholars and women before…

I tried asking an otherwise intelligent friend who normally can see both sides of an argument. I just got the circular definition that a woman is someone who identifies as a woman. I was told I must be non binary if I didn't feel I had a gender identity but knew I was a woman because biology.

It was an interesting exercise. I've said many times before that most genderists are coming from the right place but have been diverted by some very loud and cynical political activists. But even given that I was still surprised how much I could leave totally unedited in the gender critical version.

Genderists: Body sex shouldn't be a limitation on who you are, how you live and what you can achieve, so let's pretend it doesn't exist and then it can't affect anything.

Feminists: Body sex shouldn't be a limitation on who you are, how you live and what you can achieve, but let's be honest and acknowlege that right now for many women and men it still is, so we need to work out why that's still happening and what society needs to do to stop that.

I genuinely believe the mass support for genderism comes from good people who see it as freeing both sexes from sexist stereotypes, so they will eventually find their way past it and back on track.

Gender theory is built on the premise that there are no essential differences between males and females - even at general population level - in any way other than at a physical level. This assumes that the body and its biological imprint have no relation to, or effect on anything. That there are just people - with this type of body or with that type of body. 'Gender' is thus personality and preference, regardless of sex.

The problem, though, with that line of thought is that it is basing the idea of being a man or a woman, being male or female on social constructions of masculinity and femininty. That is where non-binary steps in to help ease the cognitive dissonance. We are all a mixture of traits regardless of our biologically sexed bodies.

Some gender ideologues genuinely believe that one day all difference between men and women can be eliminated if only we just increase 'equality' and 'inclusion' and dismantle 'the patriarchy'.

Well quite. How can people not see:

"How about we challenge the idea that sex is about 'biology' and biology is just 'fact'?

And not ealise it actually says

"How about we challenge the idea that facts matter and reality exists." ?

How can they not see the constant, disshonest switching between 'sex' and 'gender'?

Thank you, @StripeySuperNova, for your transcript which I managed to get half way through, which is not at all bad for this time of the morning and after only one coffee.

It's such a mish-mash of ideas. I find myself thinking 'yes, of course, isn't that obvious?' then reading something barking mad in the next phrase.

I can't begin to grasp how these people seem to think sex is of such little consequence to us and we can somehow override it or ignore it. Yes, we can do that for lots of our day to day life, but it will be significant on occasions. They seem to think one's reproductive organs are randomly distributed and have no meaning for the body as a whole.

How would their world work? I did once see a suggestion, serious I think, that when a baby is born it should be scanned and then the person carry around, for the rest of their life, a list of organs that the scan had revealed. There really seemed no awareness that a glance at the external body is a very accurate, though not infallible, guide to what's inside and the normal functioning of it.

Is this just sheer ignorance?

Great editing @FlirtsWithRhinos

Yep, this really does show how close the different positions are when it comes to challenging the sex-based expectations that are placed on us from birth. There are many that we uphold within our own cultures every day without even realising it. For example when my first child was born I got lots of pink stuff and girly toys as gifts for her. As someone who doesn't believe in gender identity, I don't believe that sex is "assigned at birth". However, I do believe that there are a whole load of sex-based expectations placed on everyone right from the start. Sadly, as women we seem to have to fight a whole lot more to break out of these when we don't want to adhere to them.

For me (as an atheist) it's similar to how closely I find myself agreeing with many of the teachings in the bible. For example, the 10 commandments make sense to me as ways to be a decent person. I don't follow them as instructions or because I would be fearful of God's wrath if I didn't. I just happen to agree that they seem like a good way for people to live within a society. Equally, I disagree with much of what the Bible says, including some of the "instructions" on how to live.

If it's not recognised as a belief, that's where the harm comes in. Beliefs can be accommodated in our existing laws and ways of living as long as they are understood to be just that. Just as we're not mandating that everyone has to go to church on a Sunday, we shouldn't be mandating that transwomen belong in women's spaces and sports. Also we shouldn't be encouraging adolescents who are struggling with the huge emotional upheaval of puberty (for girls, much of this is linked to a realisation about what society expects because of their sex, particularly when it comes to how men view them sexually) to think about gender identity as a way to make sense of it.

People can believe in gender identity should they wish to. Equally, nobody can compel anyone to do so. What's more important IMO is to call out the harms that this belief brings with it (e.g. sterilisation of children, providing an opportunity window for predators to access children/women under the banner of inclusion) and to make sure that the way it's accommodated in society doesn't impact anyone else's boundaries.