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sashh · 26/08/2023 04:04

queentim · 26/08/2023 02:19

What an interesting article.

It seems like a lot of difficult decisions were made during a time with little information and lots of pressure to make black and wjite decisions all around. It seems like everyone thought they were acting in the best interests of the baby at the time (i.e., preventing future complications snd hospitalizations).

It's sad that they went through drug use, depression, alcoholism, but glad to hear they made their way through.

I think in the past there was a lot of 'normalising' of anyone who didn't fit a particular 'ideal' eg children who had disabilities caused by thalidomide were fitted with artificial limbs, as adults most don't use them now.

So the thinking of the day to normalise and surgery at that time could more easily create what looked like a girl than a boy.

It was seen as a soloution rather than thinking about what might be available surgically in the future.

queentim · 26/08/2023 02:19

What an interesting article.

It seems like a lot of difficult decisions were made during a time with little information and lots of pressure to make black and wjite decisions all around. It seems like everyone thought they were acting in the best interests of the baby at the time (i.e., preventing future complications snd hospitalizations).

It's sad that they went through drug use, depression, alcoholism, but glad to hear they made their way through.

sashh · 26/08/2023 02:16

Another one here

https://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2015-11-06/man-who-was-raised-a-girl-calls-for-ban-on-surgery-until-children-can-make-up-their-own-minds

I remember when 'Joella' got a new birth certificate.

IwantToRetire · 26/08/2023 01:59

In some jurisdictions legislation has been passed, such as the ACT in Australia.

Thanks - I thought you were referring to the UK.

I know one of the independent intersex groups (ie not part of the rainbow umbrella) were campaigning on this, but hadden heard much lately.

I suspect their work has just been ignored in favour of the easy option of assuming the "I" is covered by the alphabet soup and so journalists etc., have stopped bothering to actually investigate and report from those directly concerned.

TammyJones · 26/08/2023 01:21

Many years ago, the series'Master of Sex' did an episode about this. Very tactfully done.
The episode was set in the sixties I think.

NotBadConsidering · 26/08/2023 00:48

IwantToRetire · 26/08/2023 00:14

This is why people and groups representing those with DSDs have successfully campaigned for no permanent hormonal treatment or surgery to be done until a child reaches 18 and is old enough to decide for themselves

Is this widely accepted in the UK? I cant find any information saying this has been agreed.

In some jurisdictions legislation has been passed, such as the ACT in Australia. In other areas it’s professionally accepted that non-urgent with a degree of permanence ne delayed if possible and it’s definitely agreed that children are no longer “made” to look like or be the opposite sex.

There are a few issues, such as what has been included as DSD. For example some proposed legislation has included hypospadias, which is not a DSD but a urogenital developmental abnormality that occurs in males. The idea that these abnormalities should not be repaired lest a boy grow up and be happy to pee out of his scrotum or perineum is clearly bonkers.

Similarly the ACT legislation requires doctors to apply for permission to hormonally treat certain conditions such as CAH which is equally stupid.

But the underlying point is that with these such conditions it needs to be very clear there is a medical necessity to alter a child’s body. Whereas WPATH want children to be allowed to do this on their declared identity.

IwantToRetire · 26/08/2023 00:43

46,XY just means male

Thanks my tired brain misremembered what phenotype meant.

Marynotsocontrary · 26/08/2023 00:39

46,XY just means male

IwantToRetire · 26/08/2023 00:23

Can anyone explain or provide a link about 46XY (as stated in the article)?

On the web site UK Intersex Association "46XY" is not listed http://www.ukia.co.uk/ukia/ukia-guide/index.html

And google results quote web sites that say "most individuals with 46, XY DSD have a completely female phenotype" and yet the article in the telegraph talks about altering her gender (I assume they mean sex) from male to female.

IwantToRetire · 26/08/2023 00:14

This is why people and groups representing those with DSDs have successfully campaigned for no permanent hormonal treatment or surgery to be done until a child reaches 18 and is old enough to decide for themselves

Is this widely accepted in the UK? I cant find any information saying this has been agreed.

NotBadConsidering · 25/08/2023 22:24

This is why people and groups representing those with DSDs have successfully campaigned for no permanent hormonal treatment or surgery to be done until a child reaches 18 and is old enough to decide for themselves, because children cannot consent. At the same time trans activists have campaigned and are campaigning for doctors and surgeons to be able to hormonally alter and operate on children at whatever age they want because children know who they are.

This lack of consistency and polarised demands are often ignored and shows why the I isn’t represented by the LGBTQIA+ alphabet any more that the LGB part is.

Inamuddle36 · 25/08/2023 22:13

tragic story — but Sophie is an amazing model of resilience in the face of tremendous emotional and physical challenges.

ArabeIIaScott · 25/08/2023 21:54

So sad. For her and her poor parents.

'ultimately, says Read, it comes down to the inevitable fact that ‘this involved removing someone’s right to reproduce. Sophie is an only child, and the doctors removed what would have been healthy testes. Sophie is now a young adult thinking about having a family and she can’t. The choice was not hers. This was the decision made for this family by doctors, based on a deeply flawed idea.’'

And how many young people are still being sterilised based on what many would say is a deeply flawed idea?

Userwithallthenumbers · 25/08/2023 21:03

I was at boarding school with someone who must have had something similar. I am bit older than Sophie.

The girl I was at school with though, had been told from early on. She was quite matter of fact about it then. Just used to say that when she was born, her parents had to decide if they wanted a girl or a boy, 'so I had my penis removed' and 'I will never be able to have children'. We were about 12 or 13 at that point.

It was only with age that I realised she had probably had a DSD, and was probably technically a boy. I always wonder where she is in life. And how much she understood about it as she grew up, whether she now knows her chromosomes etc. I hope she is doing well and had better support than Sophie

cariadlet · 25/08/2023 21:03

I've just realised what this reminds me of.

The Wasp Factory (Iain Banks)

happydappy2 · 25/08/2023 20:37

Wow, that is heart wrenching, I listened to the Triggernometry podcast today, how the transgender movement happened. Which explains that Moneys theory is completely debunked, as both brothers tragically ended up committing suicide. Now to hear of another case of a very young child being operated on and lied to about their sex, is staggering. Surely we have to say, biological sex is of over riding importance to all children.

Boiledbeetle · 25/08/2023 20:36

I can't even begin to imagine what it must have been like finding that out in your twenties.

When Sophie was born her parents must have felt like they had no choice but to trust that the surgeons knew best.

I'm sure there are a lot of Sophies out there. It can't be an easy life.

PurpleBugz · 25/08/2023 20:36

I like how she refers to herself as a soul not as man or woman. I might think the word human is more appropriate as we don't all believe in souls but it makes the same point. Sophie is a person who was wronged.

Love he turn of phrase national homocide service and how clear she is about their gender reassignment service. And the effect of taking hormones.

I look forward to the documentary. She coming at the gender debate without motives in a way. She can speak from her experiences and hopefully both sides can listen without a knee jerk reaction of not on my side so won't listen to them.

Lastly I noticed while the article was critical of money for holding up a failed experiment as successful re reimer. It failed to mention his sinister history just a sort of hint.

DworkinWasRight · 25/08/2023 19:53

Horrific story. Alice Dreger covers this subject in Galileo’s Middle Finger, which is worth a read. Fortunately surgeons don’t tend to perform these operations at birth any more - they wait till the child is old enough to decide for themselves.

LakeTiticaca · 25/08/2023 19:49

Tiddlywinks63 · 25/08/2023 19:36

Heartbreaking story.
David Reiner’s tragic story is another one.

Yes I read this one. Didn't he and his twin brother both end their own lives?
Such a tragic story x

GardenersDelight · 25/08/2023 19:45

I was a student nurse in a specialist London hospital at the same time and saw this several times during a 3 month placement plus older children returning for ongoing treatment
"Easier to be an infertile female than impotent male" was one reason given

cariadlet · 25/08/2023 19:43

Just read it. Thanks for the archived link.

What a terrible story. What a shock for Sophie. How can you come to terms with something like that.

I also felt desperately sorry for the parents who were under such pressure to make a quick decision. Given the circumstances, I can see why they agreed.