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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

It took female MPs from both parties to change Starmer’s stance on gender politics

33 replies

IwantToRetire · 15/08/2023 20:19

Private cross-party meetings for politicians worried about the erosion of sex-based rights encouraged the Labour leader to start speaking up at last

... many of us have missed the way this debate has also broken down party boundaries. It has brought together a group of MPs who are in no way like-minded. One of them is Baroness Jenkin. Jenkin and Conservative colleagues found themselves offering a safe space to Labour MPs who were at odds with their party’s policy on gender self-identification.

The most high-profile of these is Rosie Duffield, who has previously said she feels as though she is in an “abusive relationship” with her party – hardly something she would say lightly, given that she also escaped domestic abuse a few years ago. Even though the gender-critical Tories enjoy spending time with Duffield, she is manifestly not one of them: she disagrees vehemently with the two-child benefit limit, for instance, and doesn’t have much truck with the other views of the more strident Tory campaigners such as Miriam Cates. Yet she and other Labour women have ended up confiding in those Conservatives because they have found the atmosphere in their party so hostile for the past few years.

Many of these women regularly join cross-party meetings held in parliament for politicians worried about the erosion of sex-based rights. They were set up two years ago by the three gender-critical campaign groups in the main parties: Labour Women’s Declaration (LWD), Conservatives for Women and Liberal Voice for Women. Initially, they met monthly and over Zoom – more recently their meetings, private and under the Chatham House rule, have gone weekly. They include peers and MPs who gather to hear from experts in sex and gender, transgender people, people who have detransitioned and clinicians.

Everyone involved agrees that the gender-critical movement in politics was slow to get going, and didn’t notice the many changes to policy that ministers, public agencies and other organisations were agreeing to without much public fuss – until it almost seemed too late. In the past couple of years, activists have gone into a frenzy of organising to try to catch up and change party and government policy. As Jenkin says, it was easier in the Conservatives, if only because senior figures, including Sunak, saw the topic as a way of undermining Starmer. But the real prize was Labour party policy, because the debate is still largely happening on the left, not in the Tory party.

This organising paid off at the end of July when the Labour national policy forum met to thrash out the basic direction of the manifesto. One of the decisions it reached, supported by the leader’s office, was that the party would no longer have self-identification as its official policy in relation to Gender Reform Act reform. Many LWD activists are angry that there has been no acknowledgement of or apology to all the women in the party who have been abused for merely holding what is now Labour policy, and other than a brief comment from Wes Streeting, no apology to Duffield or other female MPs for the way they have been treated. However, all agree that they should now be in the position where to say that biological sex matters isn’t treated as heresy within the party. But it is still not a fully comfortable place to be.

This is from a longer article printed in the Observer, as unlikely the Guardian would have published it, but it still has some of the Guardian's usual weasal words. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/aug/13/keir-starmer-gender-politics-labour

I wonder if it is a positive to have this more publicly known. Or will die hard partyist demand loyalty and insist women dont do anything so independent as meeting with other woman with a common cause that cuts through party lines?

(If there is an existing thread on this let me know and I'll get MNHQ to delete. I did search but nothing came up.)

It took female MPs from both parties to change Starmer’s stance on gender politics | Isabel Hardman

Private cross-party meetings for politicians worried about the erosion of sex-based rights encouraged the Labour leader to start speaking up at last

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/aug/13/keir-starmer-gender-politics-labour

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Floisme · 16/08/2023 10:43

That's all very well but the fact is that Starmer is expected to be the next Prime Minister and, if that doesn't happen, he will have to resign as party leader, whereupon he'll be replaced by .... Oh I don't know, Angela Rayner perhaps? So, regardless of whether I vote for him or not, I still think it's sensible to take note of what he says and who he talks to, both in private and in public.

Anyway cross party working - more please. Unless we get proportional representation (and I can't see that opportunity coming around again in my lifetime) I can't see any other way forward for women's rights.

Alltheprettyseahorses · 16/08/2023 10:09

Except Starmer's views haven't changed. I genuinely don't think it's worth the effort of caring what he says. His USP is that he was DPP but that relies on everyone forgetting he was known as a poor choice from a below-mediocre lineup and ignoring the controversies that constantly dogged him. Oh, and crediting him with the odd thing that went reasonably well under his tenure while blaming everybody else for the constant failures. Truth is, he won the Labour leadership race not because he was the best candidate but because he was the man in it - no Labour woman has ever placed higher than a man.

FroodwithaKaren · 16/08/2023 09:10

I was aware from my MP that there is a cross party network and support, and that those MPs have the capacity to see this as not a party issue but an issue of right and wrong that all MPs should care about.

However deeds, not words. Announcing that oh look, a few women MPs from Labour have been allowed to talk to That Lot without being burned at the stake, look at the wonder of us and hoping that means women go 'oh yes, you won't throw our rights on the bonfire the second you have power' - yeah whatever. How stupid do you think women are?

LoobiJee · 16/08/2023 08:58

rogdmum · 16/08/2023 08:25

I was also struck by the mention of the absolute confidentiality afforded to members of the group, in contrast to other ‘Chatham house rules’ groups. The position that lawmakers who hold lawful views and wish to discuss those lawful views have to meet in secret to protect themselves from risk is just appalling. Those politicians who created, enforced, allowed or condoned an ideological or political position which has resulted in that situation really need to take a long hard look at themselves.

The Chatham House rules also protects the participants. I only spoke at the meetings I was invited to because I was promised confidentiality under Chatham House.

That’s such an important point. I hadn’t thought of that aspect.

Lottapianos · 16/08/2023 08:40

'I am massively disappointed in Starmer on women’s rights, and don’t trust him an inch. But I do think that he was dealt an exceptionally difficult hand as Leader of the Opposition, and has done well to pull Labour back from circling the drain'

That's exactly how I feel too. I really admire what he has achieved in his career, and I want to like him and get behind him but my god, he's an utter disaster on this issue

Beowulfa · 16/08/2023 08:37

I'm always cheered to hear about cross-party discussion, regardless of topic. It's nice to know that occasionally they can act like grown-ups with the best interest of the nation in mind.

Labour need to be thoroughly grilled about this alleged change of stance though.

SunnyEgg · 16/08/2023 08:35

They haven’t faced any decent questions yet

Dodds didn’t turn up, Starmer relied on no one is talking about it

It’s a patch of paint over a flimsy construction. They won’t be able to detail their marketing spin

AlisonDonut · 16/08/2023 08:33

I think it was the fall of Sturgeon, the cross party women, the poll but the thing that really changed was after The Interview with Stonewall.

He knows that the moment he gets in front of a half decent interviewer on these questions he has no answers. So he had no option but to swivel.

He didn't get his mind changed, his advisers told him to pivot.

rogdmum · 16/08/2023 08:25

I was also struck by the mention of the absolute confidentiality afforded to members of the group, in contrast to other ‘Chatham house rules’ groups. The position that lawmakers who hold lawful views and wish to discuss those lawful views have to meet in secret to protect themselves from risk is just appalling. Those politicians who created, enforced, allowed or condoned an ideological or political position which has resulted in that situation really need to take a long hard look at themselves.

The Chatham House rules also protects the participants. I only spoke at the meetings I was invited to because I was promised confidentiality under Chatham House.

Sausagenbacon · 16/08/2023 08:24

IMO the public consultation on the reform of the GRA was a de facto public consultation. The sheer volume of the response took everybody by surprise.
And, sorry as I am to keep it at an adversarial level, just look how Labour treated politicians that had GC views, with absolutely no censuring from the leadership.
I heard Starmer tell an interviewer that 99.9% of women didn't have a penis, as though that was it, and we were all too stupid to think 'hang on, so .1% of women DO have a penis'.
So, no thanks Labour.

SunnyEgg · 16/08/2023 08:11

They’re all over the shop with made up lines

Nothing has changed, there is no u turn. It’s £5 for a GP note to change to female and access single sex spaces

EdithStourton · 16/08/2023 08:09

The cross-party work is good to see and I only wish there was more of it, rather than the constant adversarial braying.

Labour have so fucking far to come back from this one. I really feel for their female MPs.

Floisme · 16/08/2023 07:51

I think cross party working on issues where there is agreement is the only way forward for women under the current parliamentary system. As far as I'm concerned none of the mainstream parties can be trusted with women's rights. We're on our own.

StopStartStop · 16/08/2023 07:27

No it didn't. It took an opinion poll.

This. The slow-dawning realisation that women make up half or more of the voting body and a heck of a lot of us want our rights protected against encroachment from men - any and all men - is what made him 'change his mind'.

Do not trust him. Trust Miriam Cates and Rosie Duffield.

DraggedKickingandScreaminginto40s · 16/08/2023 07:26

was that the party would no longer have self-identification as its official policy in relation to Gender Reform Act reform

I'll just repeat these important words
would no longer have self-identification as its official policy

official policy

I'll think on that.

Labour vows to ‘modernise, simplify and reform’ Gender Recognition Act

Party chair says since act was passed by party in 2004, there is now a ‘much better understanding of the barriers trans people face’

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/24/labour-vows-to-modernise-simplify-and-reform-gender-recognition-act

LoobiJee · 16/08/2023 07:23

I also enjoyed reading about Baroness Jenkin (never heard of her).

“One of them is Baroness Jenkin. The joke among Westminster women used to be that if you’d met Anne Jenkin, she’d probably already have asked you to become a Tory MP. A determined, slightly eccentric figure who often cycles around Westminster with light-up wheels on her bike, she has spent years trying to increase the number of women being elected for her party, identifying and coaching them through the candidates process. Now, though, if you meet her, she’s more likely to ask you to join her campaign for sex-based rights – and you definitely don’t need to have any Conservative beliefs at all.”

I’m not sure if that counts as grass roots activism, but that kind of laser like focus, determination, and practical approach in support of women is great to see.

LoobiJee · 16/08/2023 07:16

Ramblingnamechanger · 16/08/2023 00:34

I really warm to the idea of women doing cross party work on this…I believe it happens in the HOL more and should be encouraged . It would be good if other major issues could be handled in this way, with some sort of consensus reached about how to deal with the problems that exist. Takes longer but maybe the problems might just get solved. And three cheers for all those women tirelessly taking on the misogynists in all parties.

I agree. I was really struck by the fact that women in all three parties were being treated, at best, as not a priority by their parties or at worst were being subjected to active hostility, because their focus was women’s rights. And that they found that uniting as women across party boundaries was the thing that gave them strength and, eventually, influence.

I was also struck by the mention of the absolute confidentiality afforded to members of the group, in contrast to other ‘Chatham house rules’ groups. The position that lawmakers who hold lawful views and wish to discuss those lawful views have to meet in secret to protect themselves from risk is just appalling. Those politicians who created, enforced, allowed or condoned an ideological or political position which has resulted in that situation really need to take a long hard look at themselves.

Igmum · 16/08/2023 06:24

So pleased with this cross party work. Now that's real leadership.

But yes, how far has Labour really moved from the TRAs? How many TRAs still have the ear of the shadow cabinet? Will LWD ever make it in from the cold?

Ramblingnamechanger · 16/08/2023 00:34

I really warm to the idea of women doing cross party work on this…I believe it happens in the HOL more and should be encouraged . It would be good if other major issues could be handled in this way, with some sort of consensus reached about how to deal with the problems that exist. Takes longer but maybe the problems might just get solved. And three cheers for all those women tirelessly taking on the misogynists in all parties.

IwantToRetire · 16/08/2023 00:29

WtF????????

If you want to talk about Starmer's lack of credibility pop over to the other thread and see this report from the DM. https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4867081-labour-women-declaration-responds-to-the-uk-labour-partys-pivot-on-sex-and-gender?page=3&reply=128452080

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IwantToRetire · 16/08/2023 00:10

I have to admit I didn't think posting this would just mean was have the same old discussion about who is or is not trust worthy.

I just thought it was quite positive to know that women were working across party lines, and thought it good that it became known.

But was also concerned that some might be leant on by hard core party hacks, and hoped they would not face harrassment.

On the other hand maybe now it is out in the open it will be easier to get other people to see that across Parties some MPs have not kowtowed to the Stonewallisation of their particular party.

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IwantToRetire · 16/08/2023 00:05

No it didn't. It took an opinion poll.

Really? Have never heard of any political partyconducting a survey in which women's sex based rights was included as an issue re voting intentions.

Seriously, if there has been such an opinion poll can you provide the link as would really like to know who commissioned it, what the question was and the responses.

I think most of us on FWR, despite our core topic, know that in terms of a GE 99.9% of the population do not think women being erased is top of the issues as to which party should be in power.

Look forward to the link. Thanks

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WhereYouLeftIt · 15/08/2023 23:32

"Many LWD activists are angry that there has been no acknowledgement of or apology to all the women in the party who have been abused for merely holding what is now Labour policy, and other than a brief comment from Wes Streeting, no apology to Duffield or other female MPs for the way they have been treated."

And this is why I don't trust that there has been any change. Unacknowledged means it's all deniable. As in -

'Ooh, Anneliese's opinion piece? Why did you think that was now party policy? Surely you must know that we would make a formal announcement if that were the case, and clearly we didn't. I think you misinterpreted it.'

Right now, it's just implied, and that's simply not good enough. Until they make it totally explicit and unambiguous, I will assume that their thinking has not changed and they will implement SelfID without turning a hair. So fuck off Starmer, until you say the magic words - 'transwomen are not women'.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 15/08/2023 21:47

Whatever, Starmer. You are out of time. Labour desperately needs a new leader, a proper one with actual charisma and convictions, like Tony Blair.

Tony Blair had had the ground work done by Kinnock and John Smith. He didn’t have to pull the party back from the brink of Foot’s leadership himself. And the economy was on the up, and the 90s were probably the most stable decade of the 20th century - there had been no seismic upheaval equivalent to Brexit. And Blair didn’t have to spend his first two years in opposition not really able to attack the government because of a global emergency.

I am massively disappointed in Starmer on women’s rights, and don’t trust him an inch. But I do think that he was dealt an exceptionally difficult hand as Leader of the Opposition, and has done well to pull Labour back from circling the drain.

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