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Original poster

‘Gender-neutral’ lavatories are an invasion of women’s privacy - Kemi Badenoch

188 replies

IwantToRetire · 13/08/2023 20:14

I would never have guessed when I first became an MP how much time I would spend looking at toilet policy. But, increasingly, my job is spent legislating for common sense and stopping people determined to do destructive things.

A decade ago, there was no need to clarify who could use which toilet. However, in today’s world, some are trying to redefine biological sex to mean however one chooses to identify. This has led to multiple instances of organisations, <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/15i3m/www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/03/31/kemi-badenoch-gender-neutral-toilets-rishi-sunak/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">from schools to music venues, removing single-sex (male only or female only) toilets and replacing them with “gender-neutral” versions.

That is why today the Government is setting out clearly what the difference is, and what best practice toilet design should look like. The debate around sex-based rights has become confused. Basic tenets of everyday life, such as the right to privacy in a single sex space, are framed as transphobic by a vocal minority of activists.

Women should have exclusive access to public toilet facilities reserved specifically for them. Men should have the same. Female loos must have cubicles, while male ones can have urinals. Transgender people should have privacy. The sign on the door should clearly tell you what to expect.

The Conservatives are the only party of common sense. <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/15i3m/www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/08/09/suella-braverman-set-firm-trans-guidance-schools/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">We won’t sit idly by as schoolgirls get infections because they feel uncomfortable using “gender-neutral” loos. We will never be ashamed of defending the right to privacy and dignity for all. No matter how trendy the opposition or how vocal the outrage, we will intervene where common sense disappears.

Extracts from longer article at https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/13/gender-neutral-lavatories-are-an-invasion-of-womens-privacy/

Also available via https://archive.ph

NB there is an existing thread about this proposal (from last year) because the Government have now published the guidelines. https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4870722-female-only-toilets-will-be-guaranteed-in-new-buildings So discussion on toilets is ongoing.

Just thought it might be interesting to have a thread to see what the response of others parties might be to this, if at all. Not to duplicate discussion on other thread.

Presumably this is more than KB making a leadership bid, but the Tories do seem to let her make public statements relating to "common sense" (eg EA article) in contrast to other Ministers who are still in the foaming at the mouth little englander mode when making statements / comments.

‘Gender-neutral’ lavatories are an invasion of women’s privacy

We are standing up for common sense, and ensuring everyone is treated with dignity and sensitivity

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/13/gender-neutral-lavatories-are-an-invasion-of-womens-privacy

OP posts:
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GailBlancheViola · 15/08/2023 18:56

IwantToRetire · 15/08/2023 18:24

In which case they have to make it non negotiable and an offence to (a) not provide resolutely single sex only spaces and (b) for someone to enter a space for the opposite sex.

Well the article explains that (a) is what public buildings will be required to do.

As to (b) I suspect those who run buildings wont want the cost of security staff and cant see the police responding to a 999 call about this.

Which brings us back to the fact that it will only be sucessful if society as whole collaborates to make it happen.

Society will collaborate far quicker and more effectively if they are aware that is an offence to not provide single sex facilities and also if someone breaks those boundaries.

JanesLittleGirl · 15/08/2023 18:41

SuperiorM · 15/08/2023 18:30

In my experience, women standing up to wee is often causing the same problem in the Ladies. We don’t have His and Hers at home, we don’t need it when we go out. Public Lavatories often leave a lot to be desired, going unisex won’t make it any worse or better

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Women standing up to wee. Seriously? Every once in a while I have noticed that a little water can splash out of the bowl when I flush but it is rare.

As for not needing His and Hers at home, DH wouldn't survive making a mess a second time.

HarrietJet · 15/08/2023 18:37

SuperiorM · 15/08/2023 18:30

In my experience, women standing up to wee is often causing the same problem in the Ladies. We don’t have His and Hers at home, we don’t need it when we go out. Public Lavatories often leave a lot to be desired, going unisex won’t make it any worse or better

Show quote history

Speak for yourself, please. You're unlikely to find a strange man in your private bathroom that you haven't explicitly invited into your home.
Nobody wants to share toilet facilities with dodgy blokes. And any bloke thinking he has the right to bulldoze himself in there, for whatever reason, is definitely dodgy.

SuperiorM · 15/08/2023 18:30

JanesLittleGirl · 15/08/2023 18:21

You may be happy to go into a cubicle that has just been vacated by a man who has pissed all over the seat and floor. Fucked if I am.

Show quote history

In my experience, women standing up to wee is often causing the same problem in the Ladies. We don’t have His and Hers at home, we don’t need it when we go out. Public Lavatories often leave a lot to be desired, going unisex won’t make it any worse or better

Original poster
IwantToRetire · 15/08/2023 18:24

In which case they have to make it non negotiable and an offence to (a) not provide resolutely single sex only spaces and (b) for someone to enter a space for the opposite sex.

Well the article explains that (a) is what public buildings will be required to do.

As to (b) I suspect those who run buildings wont want the cost of security staff and cant see the police responding to a 999 call about this.

Which brings us back to the fact that it will only be sucessful if society as whole collaborates to make it happen.

OP posts:
JanesLittleGirl · 15/08/2023 18:21

SuperiorM · 15/08/2023 18:18

I think all loos should be unisex cubicles, there should be no such thing as urinals. Surely the idea that men want to pee standing next to other blokes is more than a bit eww/ick and seems thoroughly outdated.

You may be happy to go into a cubicle that has just been vacated by a man who has pissed all over the seat and floor. Fucked if I am.

SuperiorM · 15/08/2023 18:18

I think all loos should be unisex cubicles, there should be no such thing as urinals. Surely the idea that men want to pee standing next to other blokes is more than a bit eww/ick and seems thoroughly outdated.

GailBlancheViola · 15/08/2023 18:12

They only imagine they can because too many institutions are all too willing to collude with their fantasy.

In which case they have to make it non negotiable and an offence to (a) not provide resolutely single sex only spaces and (b) for someone to enter a space for the opposite sex.

I know we will now get the what about transmen trope, which is why a third gender neutral/mixed sex alternative option will need to be available.

Original poster
IwantToRetire · 15/08/2023 18:07

They imagine they can still swan into whichever one takes their fancy.

They only imagine they can because too many institutions are all too willing to collude with their fantasy.

I suspect this will be the problem. However much KB / the Tories want to present this as the common sense propobals the TRAs and the hangers on will label it transphobic and all those who have been stonewalled will meekly follow on.

As ever women's rights will not be seen as being important.

OP posts:
HarrietJet · 15/08/2023 18:02

GailBlancheViola · 15/08/2023 17:59

They can think what they like, they are not and they are not entitled to use women only spaces.

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That'll be behind their apparent espousal of single sex spaces, though, you can be sure.
They imagine they can still swan into whichever one takes their fancy.

Original poster
IwantToRetire · 15/08/2023 18:00

The problem is that trans women think they are women, and so are entitled to us women only places

No they assert they are and insist on imposing themselves when clearly they aren't wanted.

And as I understand it part of the new proposals are to clearly label toilets in relation of biological sex, ie not gender identity or acquired "legal sex".

OP posts:
GailBlancheViola · 15/08/2023 17:59

KnickerlessParsons · 15/08/2023 17:38

The problem is that trans women think they are women, and so are entitled to us women only places

They can think what they like, they are not and they are not entitled to use women only spaces.

Hepwo · 15/08/2023 17:54

Organisations are entitled to use the exceptions in their policies so if unisex non gendered toilets have been supported by Stonewall citations in this consultation there is a very strong evidence base to apply a policy that expects sex facilities to be biological and identity to use the gender neutral/unisex that they have asked for.

Its all very reasonable and clear.

KnickerlessParsons · 15/08/2023 17:38

The problem is that trans women think they are women, and so are entitled to us women only places

Original poster
IwantToRetire · 15/08/2023 17:18

I think this has shown how difficult it is, even when intentions are good(!) to have an all purpose survey aimed at the public at large.

Putting aside the significant fact that even for those who have English as their first language we have different understandings of words, and as the recent survey by MBM shows that when new lobbyist language is introduce there is even further confusion.

I do remember at the time the survey was launched and I think posted here(?) it was called a "technical" survey which made it sound like you need to know about building regulations etc..

I think this was some time ago, I mean years, and mabye they weren't too happy with the results (and like the GRA?) have concluded something that the actual figures maybe dont support. So they sort of slipped out the results back in early July.

With the idea that in the autumn there would be a consultation on the proposals they will put forward.

So not sure (as I said in OP) whether KB is just using this as an opportunity to put herself forward the the sensible pragmantic member of the Tory cabinet or whether the cabinet (do they agree on anything?) that it would be good to get peopl e interested in the run up to the autumn survey.

I dont know if this link has been shared but there is a table which spells out the direction they are heading https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-statements/detail/2022-07-04/hcws172

I cant quite reconcile the language in that to the words in KB's article:

Women should have exclusive access to public toilet facilities reserved specifically for them. Men should have the same. Female loos must have cubicles, while male ones can have urinals. Transgender people should have privacy. The sign on the door should clearly tell you what to expect.

We want a society where transgender people are treated with respect and sensitivity. But this needs to be done sensibly. For obvious reasons, women face longer queues than men to use the toilet. We have physical needs that are more complex, from menstruation to pregnancy and menopause. Female-only toilets give women the peace of mind that they will be shielded from having their privacy violated.

Unisex toilets are very different to “gender neutral” facilities. A unisex toilet is similar to a bathroom in a family home: a fully enclosed room with a handbasin and lockable door. In a venue, like a small café, there may only be space for a single unisex toilet. A “gender-neutral” facility is a mixed sex facility where men and women use the same toilet cubicles and the same facilities to wash and dry their hands.

Providing a unisex option means transgender people have a private facility where they won’t be subject to invasive questions, and they should be accessible so disabled people can use them with greater ease.

OP posts:
studentgrant · 15/08/2023 16:07

The party of common sense? 🤣🤣🤣

DarkDayforMN · 15/08/2023 13:56

Men’s rights… to administer medical care to a non consenting woman?

Yes, sadly I think you are correct about the agenda.

literalviolence · 15/08/2023 13:44

donnawinters · 15/08/2023 12:43

After a consultation, only 12% are supportive of only separate sex toilets.

I'm confused what this means. Non gendered can mean male and female surely? So sex based toilets. Nothing to do with gender? Females of all gender in the female loos but no males in there.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 15/08/2023 13:43

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/08/2023 13:26

I agree, donnawinters basically said that no one wants single sex toilets at all so the male trans people can't be all that bothered about accessing women's spaces, they can use the "gender neutral" ones.

Correct. Always worth pointing out that this is a male dominated demand. No groups of women anywhere in the world have demanded mixed sex toilets (or showers or changing rooms, sports etc)

This has been done to women by men.

Hepwo · 15/08/2023 13:37

Yes, and the huge number of Stonewall citations really does tell us this is coming from the community.

RebelliousCow · 15/08/2023 13:29

The addition of gender neutral facilities has always been the obvious solution - alongside male and female, of course. And as the consultation above suggests - most of the respondents would choose to use that provision, leaving the women's toilets for women.

Hepwo · 15/08/2023 13:26

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/08/2023 13:26

I agree, donnawinters basically said that no one wants single sex toilets at all so the male trans people can't be all that bothered about accessing women's spaces, they can use the "gender neutral" ones.

Exactly.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/08/2023 13:26

I agree, donnawinters basically said that no one wants single sex toilets at all so the male trans people can't be all that bothered about accessing women's spaces, they can use the "gender neutral" ones.

GailBlancheViola · 15/08/2023 13:25

What is a non gendered toilet when it's at home? Is it a toilet that declares they/them pronouns?

Toilet provision is, was and always should be decided on a sex basis, gender is irrelevant.

As to the guff about mixed sex free for alls in European toilets - the poster making this claim is talking crap.

Igneococcus · 15/08/2023 13:24

Gender neutral toilets are all over continental Europe without complaint AFAIK.

Definitely not true for Germany, or the bits of France, Italy and Austria I know well.

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