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‘Gender-neutral’ lavatories are an invasion of women’s privacy - Kemi Badenoch

188 replies

IwantToRetire · 13/08/2023 20:14

I would never have guessed when I first became an MP how much time I would spend looking at toilet policy. But, increasingly, my job is spent legislating for common sense and stopping people determined to do destructive things.

A decade ago, there was no need to clarify who could use which toilet. However, in today’s world, some are trying to redefine biological sex to mean however one chooses to identify. This has led to multiple instances of organisations, <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/15i3m/www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/03/31/kemi-badenoch-gender-neutral-toilets-rishi-sunak/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">from schools to music venues, removing single-sex (male only or female only) toilets and replacing them with “gender-neutral” versions.

That is why today the Government is setting out clearly what the difference is, and what best practice toilet design should look like. The debate around sex-based rights has become confused. Basic tenets of everyday life, such as the right to privacy in a single sex space, are framed as transphobic by a vocal minority of activists.

Women should have exclusive access to public toilet facilities reserved specifically for them. Men should have the same. Female loos must have cubicles, while male ones can have urinals. Transgender people should have privacy. The sign on the door should clearly tell you what to expect.

The Conservatives are the only party of common sense. <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/15i3m/www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/08/09/suella-braverman-set-firm-trans-guidance-schools/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">We won’t sit idly by as schoolgirls get infections because they feel uncomfortable using “gender-neutral” loos. We will never be ashamed of defending the right to privacy and dignity for all. No matter how trendy the opposition or how vocal the outrage, we will intervene where common sense disappears.

Extracts from longer article at https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/13/gender-neutral-lavatories-are-an-invasion-of-womens-privacy/

Also available via https://archive.ph

NB there is an existing thread about this proposal (from last year) because the Government have now published the guidelines. https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4870722-female-only-toilets-will-be-guaranteed-in-new-buildings So discussion on toilets is ongoing.

Just thought it might be interesting to have a thread to see what the response of others parties might be to this, if at all. Not to duplicate discussion on other thread.

Presumably this is more than KB making a leadership bid, but the Tories do seem to let her make public statements relating to "common sense" (eg EA article) in contrast to other Ministers who are still in the foaming at the mouth little englander mode when making statements / comments.

‘Gender-neutral’ lavatories are an invasion of women’s privacy

We are standing up for common sense, and ensuring everyone is treated with dignity and sensitivity

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/13/gender-neutral-lavatories-are-an-invasion-of-womens-privacy

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SuperiorM · 15/08/2023 23:35

JanesLittleGirl · 15/08/2023 18:41

Women standing up to wee. Seriously? Every once in a while I have noticed that a little water can splash out of the bowl when I flush but it is rare.

As for not needing His and Hers at home, DH wouldn't survive making a mess a second time.

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Wee all over the seat is bog standard in public lavatories. I can compute why folk choose to stand but not why 70+% don’t wipe the seat

PaleBlueMoonlight · 15/08/2023 23:34

Actually in most public toilets there is sufficient traffic.

PaleBlueMoonlight · 15/08/2023 23:33

SuperiorM · 15/08/2023 23:29

In an ideal world where toilets are perfect and we all go to the loo simultaneously.

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In the nighttime economy yes, there is usually plenty of traffic in the ladies loos.

SuperiorM · 15/08/2023 23:32

HarrietJet · 15/08/2023 18:37

Speak for yourself, please. You're unlikely to find a strange man in your private bathroom that you haven't explicitly invited into your home.
Nobody wants to share toilet facilities with dodgy blokes. And any bloke thinking he has the right to bulldoze himself in there, for whatever reason, is definitely dodgy.

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Not all blokes are dodgy and every woman isn’t trustworthy.

SuperiorM · 15/08/2023 23:29

PaleBlueMoonlight · 15/08/2023 23:27

No. In normal toilets with cubicles you have the security of other women being around. You are less at risk of being followed in. You are less at risk of being unnoticed if you are vulnerable.

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In an ideal world where toilets are perfect and we all go to the loo simultaneously.

SuperiorM · 15/08/2023 23:27

Hepwo · 15/08/2023 23:20

Just because you are superior M doesn't mean you get to dismiss something that's important to others.

Erm 🫤 rid dic u luss

PaleBlueMoonlight · 15/08/2023 23:27

SuperiorM · 15/08/2023 23:12

So individual cubicles better then, surely? It’s storm in a teacup stuff.

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No. In normal toilets with cubicles you have the security of other women being around. You are less at risk of being followed in. You are less at risk of being unnoticed if you are vulnerable.

Hepwo · 15/08/2023 23:20

Just because you are superior M doesn't mean you get to dismiss something that's important to others.

SuperiorM · 15/08/2023 23:12

RebelliousCow · 15/08/2023 19:02

Even in the night time economy? I'm not sure that many women would feel comfortable in a corridor of unisex loos when out at a club or a similar type of nightspot. In fact women often use the toilets as an escape from unwanted male attention.

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So individual cubicles better then, surely? It’s storm in a teacup stuff.

CrazyArmadilloLady · 15/08/2023 22:01

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CrazyArmadilloLady · 15/08/2023 21:47

RebelliousCow · 15/08/2023 21:22

Really? I'm not sure any of us were aware of that until you told us.

The difference at home, as you must surely know, is that people in our home are known and as a result tend to be intimate with each other - therefore hopefuly more considerate and respectful than strangers; although of course we know for many women and girls they are not even safe at home.

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I agree with you! I don’t need it explained. It’s a completely ridiculous comparison.

RebelliousCow · 15/08/2023 21:22

CrazyArmadilloLady · 15/08/2023 20:40

Right, but …. you know everyone using your loos at home……..?

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Really? I'm not sure any of us were aware of that until you told us.

The difference at home, as you must surely know, is that people in our home are known and as a result tend to be intimate with each other - therefore hopefuly more considerate and respectful than strangers; although of course we know for many women and girls they are not even safe at home.

RebelliousCow · 15/08/2023 21:18

RebelliousCow · 15/08/2023 21:17

I'm perfectly aware of what was said....but the reason for urinals is not for men to piss together - but because it is more practical, I assume, in men's facilities. If men want the option of a private cubicle it is there, though.

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Are youy aware that pissoirs are standard for men, even in public spaces, in France.

RebelliousCow · 15/08/2023 21:17

CrazyArmadilloLady · 15/08/2023 20:39

Trying reading what she said again….

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I'm perfectly aware of what was said....but the reason for urinals is not for men to piss together - but because it is more practical, I assume, in men's facilities. If men want the option of a private cubicle it is there, though.

JanesLittleGirl · 15/08/2023 21:12

I'm still locked out on

In my experience, women standing up to wee is often causing the same problem in the Ladies.

CrazyArmadilloLady · 15/08/2023 20:40

SuperiorM · 15/08/2023 18:30

In my experience, women standing up to wee is often causing the same problem in the Ladies. We don’t have His and Hers at home, we don’t need it when we go out. Public Lavatories often leave a lot to be desired, going unisex won’t make it any worse or better

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Right, but …. you know everyone using your loos at home……..?

CrazyArmadilloLady · 15/08/2023 20:39

RebelliousCow · 15/08/2023 19:05

You think men peeing standing up is outdated?

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Trying reading what she said again….

Beefcurtains79 · 15/08/2023 19:40

specialsauce · 15/08/2023 19:14

In fact women often use the toilets as an escape from unwanted male attention.

OMG yes!
How the hell do we have that girlie pep talk, help me, I've had enough let's get out of here chat with a female friend if the lads can just follow you in?

You can’t, that’s the point.

specialsauce · 15/08/2023 19:14

In fact women often use the toilets as an escape from unwanted male attention.

OMG yes!
How the hell do we have that girlie pep talk, help me, I've had enough let's get out of here chat with a female friend if the lads can just follow you in?

specialsauce · 15/08/2023 19:10

I had to use mixed sex toilets at a meeting in London recently. It was just so awful going into a cubicle next to male colleagues and male directors.
I absolutely won't do it again. Ever.
I just felt so on show! We all know we can hear each other weeing sometimes you know!! I don't want to hear a male colleague weeing and I don't want them to hear me weeing / ripping open a tampon etc.
Just NO

Kittyhasababy · 15/08/2023 19:10

SuperiorM · 15/08/2023 18:30

In my experience, women standing up to wee is often causing the same problem in the Ladies. We don’t have His and Hers at home, we don’t need it when we go out. Public Lavatories often leave a lot to be desired, going unisex won’t make it any worse or better

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In my experience unisex toilets are smellier and dirtier than female toilets. It's really basic biology. Some people who pee standing up inevitably pee on the floor. I have yet to go in a unisex toilet without a disgusting floor! Yes, a lot of public toilets are already disgusting but why make them more disgusting for women? How do women benefit? Oh that's right, as usual they don't.

RebelliousCow · 15/08/2023 19:05

SuperiorM · 15/08/2023 18:18

I think all loos should be unisex cubicles, there should be no such thing as urinals. Surely the idea that men want to pee standing next to other blokes is more than a bit eww/ick and seems thoroughly outdated.

You think men peeing standing up is outdated?

RebelliousCow · 15/08/2023 19:04

I was in a pub in Edinburgh once and there was a handwriiten sign pinned on the wall of the Ladies' loo - suggesting to women who had a reason not to want be with a man they had maybe met on a blind date or similar, for whatver reason - that there was a named person behind the bar they could approach for assistance.

RebelliousCow · 15/08/2023 19:02

SuperiorM · 15/08/2023 18:18

I think all loos should be unisex cubicles, there should be no such thing as urinals. Surely the idea that men want to pee standing next to other blokes is more than a bit eww/ick and seems thoroughly outdated.

Even in the night time economy? I'm not sure that many women would feel comfortable in a corridor of unisex loos when out at a club or a similar type of nightspot. In fact women often use the toilets as an escape from unwanted male attention.

GailBlancheViola · 15/08/2023 18:59

We don’t have His and Hers at home, we don’t need it when we go out.

Do you regularly join your dh or guests in your home toilet when they are using it? Do you have a bank of toilets and then a separate hand washing area?

You talk nonsense.

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