‘Gender-neutral’ lavatories are an invasion of women’s privacy - Kemi Badenoch

Firstly, thanks for taking action. Not everyone does.

Would you have done the same if the man you called out was dressed in traditional female clothing? And, if you did and they gave you a "I'm a woman so this is right" what would you have done?

You have actually pointed up my first point. You observe the social contract. Your mates observe the social contract. So you assume that the social contract is working. IT FUCKING ISN'T!

Well yes, I imagine a man calling it out would get a very different reaction, sadly.
Good for you, though.

I think there still is a social contract for the vast majority of people. As a bloke I can say that none of my friends would feel entitled to enter a woman's toilet or changing room. Any one that does is exactly the sort of person that should be kept out. They should be challenged every.single.time. I called out a bloke who walked into the women's toilet the other day. He claimed it was a mistake and maybe it was. Doubtless there is less chance of a violent reaction as a man but it is important to call it out.

Yes. It is about the interaction at the mirror. But we also know it is about the masturbatory opportunity for some (either there and then or afterwards). And it is for the intimidation factor / claiming victimization of micro aggressions.

There are so many reasons for the access to female single sex spaces. What is important to note is that there seems to be a complete lack of male people prosecuted for attacking trans people who are also male in male toilets and changing rooms in the UK. So, they will be safe with the other male trans people if they choose to use male facilities or choose to use unisex alternatives.

It is a small group who demand access and some of them, from their own self published videos of either their threats or their erotic experiences are not the people who are like the constant stream of ‘nice mates’ that some posters assure us are using them. The fact that there are not women posting threatening toilet videos or videos of them masturbating in female toilets is usually overlooked…. Female porn masturbation in female toilet vids don’t seem to be the growing category…. Whodathunkit!

They're not affirmed by a loo. They're affirmed by the other "ladies" present.
So they can admire each other's lipstick and swishy hair and share tampons, you know, like we all do when we're in a public loo.

Exactly. We do know that when girls only have access to mix-sexed facilities they often avoid them and end up with UTIs. That's an actual, tangible problem with no female facilities. There really is no argument for getting rid of them that doesn't rely on anything more than males being considered more important than females.

I think this is a really good question. I don't have a gender identity so as a biological female I share the ladies loos with people who I don't share an identity with and it's never been a problem.

What exactly is the problem with using a toilet that doesn't conform to your gender identity anyway? No-one needs to be affirmed by a loo.

From the Equality Act 2010
Schedule 3 - Services and public functions: exemptions
Part 7 - Separate and single services:

^Gender reassignment

28(1)A person does not contravene section 29, so far as relating to gender reassignment discrimination, only because of anything done in relation to a matter within sub-paragraph (2) if the conduct in question is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

(2)The matters are—

(a)the provision of separate services for persons of each sex;

(b)the provision of separate services differently for persons of each sex;

(c)the provision of a service only to persons of one sex.^

So it is perfectly legal to provide single sex loos and ignore the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

So why isn't this generally enforced?

The main reason is assumption. The majority of providers respect the social contract and assume that everyone else will do the same. Then women who are subjected to men who ignore the social contract put up with it rather than make a fuss.

The next reason is uncertainty. What does a woman do if she encounters a man in the women's loo? Can she approach the man and dare she? Does she know the provider's policy on single sex spaces? Does she know the details of the EqA? Easier to be pissed off and leave it.

This uncertainty continues. If the woman complains to the provider's representative, what can they do? Do they know the provider's policy on single sex spaces? Do they know the details of the EqA? Do they know what legal power they have to eject the man?

The final reason is fear. If the provider has a policy of declaring the loos as single sex spaces under Schedule 3, Part 7 of the EqA, puts up appropriate signage and briefs their staff that they must take any legitimate action to remove any person who is using an inappropriate loo, what will happen? Will there be a SM campaign against them? What about TripAdvisor? Will there be demonstrations outside their premises? Easier to not go down that road.

This is the dystopian reality that we have today and that so delights DadJoke. Given that the social contract has collapsed, we need a change in the Law. Entering a facility intended for the exclusive use of the opposite sex, unless for a legitimate purpose such as cleaning or repair, should be an offence under the Sexual Offences Act as should enabling another person to do so.

Either way. My point stands that anyone can have any opinion. It is not up to male people or female people who have ‘never an issue’ with gender neutral or unisex provision to either make demands about female single sex spaces or attempt to shame any woman or girl who wants single sex spaces enforced for any reason.

have your unisex space. Leave single sex spaces and enforce them via allowing female people to ask someone male to leave or call police or security. And stop with the attempts of male posters attempting to parse and diminish the current effects of these issues.

The doubling down is clear and doesn’t help tran people. That time has started to pass, a new tactic is needed .

Sorry Pho. Have I misread your post?

Oh and Maddy, I can list places off the top of my head right now that have ‘unisex’ toilets that are not ‘floor to ceiling’ cubicles and have no hand basins in the cubicles. How lucky are YOU that you have never been in one.

I have even been in female toilets where there is a urinal for the men before you reach the cubicles and you have to wash your hands near the urinal.

Only skimmed TFT but I'm fully in favour of what I've heard called "superloos" - the fully enclosed ones like tiny bathrooms.

But apparently, as @Helleofabore has proved above, this isn't an opinion we are allowed to to have.

Yay! For you Maddy. But you don’t get to decide what people use the toilets for and to decide for all women and girls whether only unisex provision is to be provided.

In fact, the UK government had a consultation on this very topic and came back with the recommendations that female single sex toilets are most definitely needed.

Good for you! Go and use those toilets and other people will continue to campaign to preserve female single sex spaces.

Ever fitted a very full pram with loads of shopping or a double pram in one?

What about having to assist an elderly woman in a wheelchair when there is no disable toilet?

Ever had to assist a woman after a miscarriage who needs privacy in a female toilet?

Or do you just believe these are all made up and don’t happen because it has never happened to you? Fine to have gender neutral alternatives in addition, but not fine to replace female single sex toilets. Life happens and in a female life it is not just a place to fucking pee.

Why are you doubling down? Is it that you actually see there is a difference, yet one provision is ‘just as legal’ as the other so you are trying desperately to limit the discussion to suit your desire to not allow the point that some toilets are inside changing rooms and those are covered by same provisions, yet male individuals ignore those provisions in all cases?

Your constant attempt to redirect doesn’t change the fact that you are here telling women that women and girls have to accept males in the single sex spaces or the loss of female single sex spaces. You! A male! You are doing this on a feminist board with little understanding of why we need those spaces.

Please do continue Dadjoke because all those reading can see it clearly. Why can’t you?

I have never used a 'unisex' toilet that hasn't been an enclosed cubicle with its own sink etc. I would have no issue with those at all.

Not toilets in changing rooms. Toilets - the subject under discussion.

As other posters have agreed, transgender people can use the loo associated with their gender, and have done for years.

“As an aside I was remembering how hard it was to use loos with a double pushchair on my own. Sometimes I could leave the door ajar and rely on other women to understand. Must be so much harder now.”

You are not alone in doing that. Many women have had to do this. Even for women with care of others with disabilities where there is no usable disabled toilet. It does happen that at times a disabled toilet is not available in time.

Yet, every single poster who does the ‘they just want to pee’ is one who shows themselves to be either male with no fucking concept of the needs of women and girls, or they are women who have no caring responsibilities and who have never once considered others.

It shows the inherent misogyny underlying the ‘just want to pee’ mantra.

I don't live in the UK anymore but am here on holiday and I'm actually quite shocked at how bad the mixed sex loos are. Today I walked in on a man who hadn't bothered to shut the cubicle door. ALL of the loos have been dirtier and smellier than I expected. I don't let my dd go in on her own anymore as she doesn't feel safe. Why do women have to put up with this crap?
As an aside I was remembering how hard it was to use loos with a double pushchair on my own. Sometimes I could leave the door ajar and rely on other women to understand. Must be so much harder now.

all around the world the trans agenda has sneaked in, regardless of government. It has successfully trojan horsed it's way into policies. So although what has happened has happened under conservatives, if we compare where the UK is now, with other countries - think Ireland, Spain, Canada, Australia, NZ, Germany, USA ... We're actually in a fairly good position, and I think that is down to the tories/lords. I'm sure if the trojan horse had entered during a labour/lib/green government the horse would be completely rampaging about the place uncontrolled.

it seems that under the tories it has snuck in, and is on a slowly shortening leash.

(I say this as a life long labour voter. Ex labour voter now. GO KEMI!!))