Friend called TW 'man' and 'fella'

I hope that this turmoils the 'fella' into rethinking his life choices. Misgendering as social discouragement.

Is it's just the years of woman guilt and being told to be 'nice?'

Yes, it's our socialisation, and centuries & centuries of facilitating men. Don't beat yourself up @Zombaes .

It's a good opportunity though to think through in your mind what you might do next time you're in this sort of situation. These are good moments for "rehearsing," I suppose.

Just because the waiter was heavily made up does not mean he identifies as a woman, surely?

Did the person your friend addressed as man, mate and fella react in any way?

I can guarantee they would have done had it been a woman who had said those things.

I get it OP I really do. You'd never want to intentionally hurt anyone. Not that feeding their delusions helps but gender seems very real and very important to them despite the fact it's clearly bollocks to us.

Well adjusted adults don't often become trans, there's a reason suicides and self harm and criminal activity and prostitution are so high in the trans community. These are people with serious mental health problems and skewed thinking about what's normal and acceptable in society. People who hate themselves so much they want to become someone else. This is my problem with Stonewall, in my opinion it is preying on people who need proper help and support to get their lives on track.

@Zombaes

I think you may have felt unease because the words coming out of your friends mouth and the image the person in front of thou was portraying in front of you did not match in your head and that triggered the feeling that something was wrong which you felt as unease/ discomfort.

I like places where they call everyone 'duck'. It's totally unisex.

But other than that I don't think I use things like love or mate or fella when I'm talking.

I use mate sometimes but usually in an argument!

In a drive through the only things I'm likely to say is 'what did you say?' Can you repeat that' 'erm....barbecue sauce' 'no I don't want to supersize it' and 'thanks' so it matters not a jot what sex or gender the person is at the counter. Maybe that also made it a much more awkward feeling?

We make exceptions for people's contrary-to-fact beliefs all the time.

If the man-in-a-dress introduced himself as Judy, would you immediately demand his birth name? If you're willing to roll with his name being stereotypically female, you're likely to avoid 'man, fella' if you can remember to do so.

It doesn't mean you think he's a woman.

But if he was obviously a man, you should address him As a man. Like pp said, short hair and trousers don't make you a man any more than lipstick and lashes make you a woman. You're overthinking it.

As an atheist, I do watch my language around people who are religious. If I know you are religious, I would make an effort not to say 'oh my god' or 'Jesus H Fucking Christ'. Because I may not share their belief in the supernatural, but I don't feel the need to piss on their chips, either.

Would I let the man-dressed-as-a-woman use the female loo without comment? No.

Would I deliberately address him as 'fella' if I knew he was using a female name? No.

I might slip up, of course. And that's not an act of hate. It's my firm grasp on reality asserting itself.

Why would it feel rude not to join in with someone's belief system?

Would you feel rude if you followed a practicing Catholic into their church without joining in with their genuflectiions?

Unfortunately, real women get told "no" but men dressing as women seem to be treated differently and allowed to get away with it.

I wonder why.

Good on your friend, OP. More men need to be straight to the point like him. Say it as they see it and forget the "be kind" indulgences.

It's not weird at all unless you have had literally no exposure to working class culture. To answer your question, he would likely have addressed a woman as "love", "pet", "duck", "hinny" or "darling" depending on what part of the country he was from (although "love" and "duck" are also used by men to address other men).

People who call others fella, mate, bruv, ducks, lover or the suchlike are not going to stop because a man is wearing clothes often associated with women. And why should they? It's no one's job to try and guess how randoms want to be addressed.

I think your friend's reaction was fine - polite, friendly, non-judgemental. These two men had never met before and are perhaps unlikely to meet again. Your friend made a judgement call about gender/sex and went with language that felt right to him.

If they had been introduced at a party, it would be different: 'This is Judy. She's from Sheffield.' And your friend went on to fella/mate/man. That would feel rude.

"I dunno the false eyelashes, bright pink lipstick, the hair in space buns and the false nails and name tag with a woman's name all just sort of screamed 'I'm trying to be a woman'"

I am completely missing the point of the thread, but most, if not all, fast food outlets - certainly the ones big enough to have drive-throughs - don't allow employees to wear false nails while working.

Your friend sounds delightful!

It makes no sense to me.

They want us to see them as women, that's why they do it.
Apparently misgendering is literal violence. [A]

So when we see a man dressed as a woman they tell us to be kind and treat him as one. [A]

But them people like you say 'don't make assumotions' he might be a man (duh) and just like women's clothes. [B]

So what we don't use any sex based language or pronouns around anyone now? Incase we assume wrong?? [You]

But I thought pronouns and respecting them is soooo important? [A]

It's like people have tied themselves up in knots so much that you don't even know what you're saying or want anymore? [You]

The problem you have here is you are mixing up the oposing opinions of 2 separate groups [I've added labels for clarirty] and trying to make them agree with each other.

Group A - thinks TWAW.

Group B - thinks TWAnotW.

Of course what 1 says is inconsistent with what the other says. That's not group A or group B tying themselves in knots. The knots are entirely your own.

I think this is really interesting. Moot point, but it makes me wonder how the TW would have reacted if a woman used the same language?

Where I live women are 'love'; 'girl' or 'queen'. Men are 'mate' or 'lad' or 'boss'.

Can you analyse that response any further, and uncover where it was coming from?

Because it is natural/instinctive to do so.