Stickering

I went to the toilet in John Lewis yesterday; the ladies had a rainbow poster on the door ( yes chaps, everyone is welcome in this one) but nothing on the men’s door. So I left a sticker in the cubicle I used to remind the next user what a woman is.

I'm pretty sure I didn't.

You brought it up!

Absolutely @Ereshkigalangcleg no idea why this thread about stickers has become yet another carbon copy of the same old "talking points".

Regarding stickers, Wild Womyn Workshop also have some lovely stickers, although they are on summer break atm. I particularly like this sticker!

https://wildwomynworkshop.com/store/sticker/individual-stickers/fuck-nice-raise-hell-feminist-sticker/

Privacy and dignity- you are in a locked cubicle aren’t you when you are using the toilet? Is it just the washing your hands that worries you? Have you never washed your hands in mixed company before?

Feel free to look at the thousands of other threads where this issue has been discussed, rather than derailing this one.

Hormones - google it, there’s lots of information. Testosterone is the reason men can get an erection and the reason men generally have a higher sex drive then woman !

Privacy and dignity- you are in a locked cubicle aren’t you when you are using the toilet? Is it just the washing your hands that worries you? Have you never washed your hands in mixed company before?

I don't care whether males are taking hormones or not, it's a violation of my privacy and dignity for them to use a female only space.

What evidence do you have that those males have reduced sexual urges?

What evidence do you have that most transwomen don’t take hormones? I’d like to see this and maybe it would help me understand your point if that’s the case.

I suspect that of those that don’t it’s probably because they’ve socially transitioned and are on the long waiting list for a gender recognition clinic.

Oh. And way to go to call women and girl’s concerns ‘hysterics’. Misogynistic much?

“Most trans people take hormones to which reduce their sexual urges”

You know that there is a growing sector in trans porn? That these male people are not taking hormones reducing their sexual urges? And that perhaps 95+% still retain their penis. And that the percentage of male people who have trans identities that are in prison with sex crime convictions is higher than the general male population?

“Are you suggesting because they are trans they are more likely perverted or are you assuming a large proportion of people with a penis are perverted.”

Has anyone claimed that trans people are more perverted?

“Do you have any statistics suggesting any of these things happen in any sort of sizeable quantity or are you buying into hysterics?”.

I think the UK prison statistics are very clear. Males with trans identities commit sex crimes at a rate that is no less than the general male population.

Have you got any statistics to prove otherwise? Please post the links. We have been asking for these for a few years now and there is never any answer to these requests.

“I think given how much hate crime trans people have faced over recent years it’s much more likely a trans woman using them men’s toilets will be physically or sexually assaulted.”

And can you please post these statistics too. Peer reviewed evidence please.

Given that this potentially is an issue, but there seems to be a lack of evidence, where is the campaign from stonewall about making it safer for all male people to use the male toilets? The ‘you can pee next to me’ campaign for all male people.

Stickering is great. I never take anyone else's sticker off though. I may place mine next to theirs, but never over theirs. I like to put them on bins. I put them on progress pride flag displays but only on the hideous chevron bit. I know they don't stay there for long but I do know dome people will see them.

I suggest if your sticker is took down straight away find a new location next time as clearly your spot has been registered and gets checked regularly.

Most TWs don't take hormones and have not had any medical interventions of any kind. They are, quite literally, physically identical to any other man.

Most take estrogen and testosterone blockers which reduces sexual interest in general. Many have had surgery so don’t have a penis. Even when they don’t do you think they intend to do you harm because if this? Are you this afraid of 49% of the population who have high testosterone levels and or penises all the time?

Most trans men take testosterone and this can increase their sexual interest. Does this worry you? Do you want them in ‘your’ space or in the men’s space as well?

Does the thought of risk that trans women face because you expect them to use the men’s toilets not concerned you? Do you want them to be exposed to risk?

Yes, I worry about my son going into men's toilets alone. A very small chance that he may see something inappropriate or be approached by someone inappropriately. I would not have the same level of worry about a daughter going to the women's toilets alone. Do you know why, @Kit7 ? Have you ever looked at the statistics about violent offenders and sexual offenders? Are you aware there is an almost total split by sex?

Most trans people take hormones to which reduce their sexual urges.

Do they now. In what sense?

Trust me, they wouldn't.

If a given unicorn male is completely indistinguishable from a woman they can use women's facilities by stealth, yes. That applies to all men, not just ones who identify as women in any meaningful way. It doesn't mean we have to ignore when obvious men violate our boundaries.

“Well that's the issue isn't it, how do you decide who is just wanting "to go to the toilet in peace" and who is trying to get in for shady reasons?”

Dont most people just want to use the toilet in peace? Most trans people take hormones to which reduce their sexual urges. Are you suggesting because they are trans they are more likely perverted or are you assuming a large proportion of people with a penis are perverted. Do you have sons or young male relatives, do you worry about them going the toilet? Are you with a male partner, are you worried he is sexually abusing people in the men’s toilets or being sexually abused?

Do you have any statistics suggesting any of these things happen in any sort of sizeable quantity or are you buying into hysterics?

I think given how much hate crime trans people have faced over recent years it’s much more likely a trans woman using them men’s toilets will be physically or sexually assaulted.

Are you judging other women’s ability to read male cues based on your own? Or are you judging women’s lack of reaction to your mates presence on them not identifying that you friends are male?

Because unless they have had their puberty blocked from before it even started, the chances are miniscule that women and girls would not identify them as male after a short time of seeing them move and talk in a well lit environment. I have poor distance vision, and I can reliably tell who is a male approaching without my glasses on. Just from movement.

Even with full facial modifications the cues are there. Even when they have the gap between their nose and lip shortened.

Just because you believe you can’t tell, doesn’t mean others can’t.

Trust me, they wouldn't.

“What about trans men, do you want them dressed male and with a beard in many cases in ‘your’ toilet?”

This is always a false argument and is driven by a lack of understanding about women’s needs.

What is great is that we have had many female transitioners come to MN and talk to us. They tell us that they fully understand that their medical treatments have been successful in cosmetically changing their body to give male cues at a quick glance.

They also tell us that they understand this and therefore they seek alternative spaces. These female people have developed apps to help them find those alternative spaces. So that they don’t cause other women distress. Because they understand.

Yet this group is weaponised as a fucked up ‘gotcha’.

No. In a world where all female people could be 100% confident that a person entering a space was another female, maybe this argument would work. But not while male bodily cues are the triggers for distress of traumatised women

These arguments about toilets also are fuckwittery in their ignorance of the needs of privacy of women and girls using the toilets. Maybe due to that person’s wonderful privilege of never having to use the toilet for the many other day to day issues faced by women. The removal of stains, the jamming of doors open with prams and strollers or wheelchairs because of the lack of facilities. I could go on. There are plenty of other uses. How wonderful it must be to never have needed a toilet except to pee.

They'd raise my heckles because they are men and therefore don't belong in women's spaces.
Women are not support humans to protect a subset of men from another subset of men.

It used to be the case that people themselves understood the social contract around single sex spaces and understood what would happen if someone male intruded in a female single sex space. No need for third party policing of it.

If a transman passes well enough that they would generally be read as male, then I'm quite sure they would want to use the men's toilets, or any mixed sex facilities.

Back to stickering. I think I will get some stickers, The Famous Artist Birdy Rose has some very beautiful ones.

Exactly this.

I can think of at least two transwomen I've known over the years who would be no safer in the gents than me, and who wouldn't raise the heckles of even the most GC MNer.

How do you decide who is trans and who isn’t?

Well that's the issue isn't it, how do you decide who is just wanting "to go to the toilet in peace" and who is trying to get in for shady reasons?