Stickering

You promised thoughts

I’m looking forward to them

don’t disappoint me now

I mentioned that as I have removed the stickers in the loos at work.

Seems to be causing some confusion - it is common to refer to any room with a toilet, particularly public conveniences, as the bathroom in many parts of the English-speaking world. I guess you haven't come across that before, so I'm happy to be able to provide that clarification.

Sorry, I forgot to add, I added the handy chart on the bottom of my post as a visual cue to understand just what the differences are between male and female testosterone levels.

In* Scotland 🙄

I'm not a fan of stickering really like any graffiti. I'm Scotland during the run up to the indy referendum, (and even since then) there have been Yes stickers put up all over the place including on reflective road signs which can be unsafe and expensive to sort out.

Knowing how I felt as a no voter seeing those yes stickers, I don't think I could support it even if it was for a cause I care about like this.

It felt like folk marking their territory and imposing their political opinions over folk who wouldn't stick stickers everywhere but still had the right to their own opinions.

I appreciate that I get that same sort of feeling when I see the trans-pride flags everywhere on businesses etc it feels like being told to shut up and get with the programme.

I thought the comments up thread about stickering being a legitimate form of protest when silenced elsewhere were thought provoking though. I understand that seeing that others share your view could be reassuring when everywhere else appears captured.

Well. I googled.

Regarding testosterone suppression. It has been widely known just how unreliable suppression actually is. This has been commented on by those who have been vocal about how testosterone suppression is absolutely fucking useless for women’s sports fairness and should never have been proposed.

It is also highly harmful to males to do this. And taking estrogen doesn’t protect against the harm from the loss of testosterone. Something that some people who are self-appointed spokespeople for trans people don’t seem to understand. It is wrong to demand that any male suppresses their testosterone as it can shorten lives.

Anyway, here is a small study.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1530891X20353969

Endocrine Practice
Volume 24, Issue 2, February 2018, Pages 135-142

Jennifer J. Liang MS, Divya Jolly BS, Kelly J. Chan BA, Joshua D. Safer MD

ABSTRACT

Objective: Most transgender women depend on medical treatment alone to lower testosterone levels in order to align physical appearance with gender identity. The medical regimen in the United States typically includes spironolactone and estrogens. The purpose of this cross-sectional study was to assess the testosterone suppression achieved among transgender women treated with spironolactone and estrogens.

Methods: Testosterone and estradiol levels were extracted from the electri electronic medical records of 98 anonymized transgender women treated with oral spironolactone and oral estrogen therapy at the Endocrinology Clinic at Boston Medical Center.

Results: Patients starting therapy required about 9 months to reach a steady-state testosterone, with significant heterogeneity of levels achieved among patients. Patients with normal body mass index (BMI) had higher testosterone levels, whereas patients with obese BMI had lower testosterone levels throughout treatment. Stratification of patients by age or spironolactone dosage revealed no significant difference in testosterone levels achieved. At steady state, patients in the highest suppressing quartile were able to achieve testosterone levels of 27 ng/dL, with a standard deviation of 21 ng/dL. Measured serum estradiol levels did not change over time and did not correlate with dosage of estradiol administered.

Conclusion: Among a cohort of transgender women treated with spironolactone and estrogen, the highest suppressing quartile could reliably achieve testosterone levels in the female range at virtually all times. The second highest suppressing quartile could not achieve female levels but remained below the male range virtually all of the time. One quartile was unable to achieve any significant suppression.

I cannot access this study. I will look for others. However this came out around the same time as the article below. Here is the article that relates to this study.

https://www.bumc.bu.edu/camed/2018/02/20/medicine-alone-does-not-completely-suppress-testosterone-levels-among-transgender-women/

“Only a quarter of transgender women taking a regimen of spironolactone and estrogens were able to lower testosterone levels within the usual female physiologic range. Another quarter could not achieve female levels but remained below the male range virtually all of the time, while one quarter was unable to achieve any significant suppression.”

“This study allowed us to identify patients who achieved differing levels of testosterone suppression, including a group of patients unable to achieve any significant testosterone suppression. These patients may have had difficulty adhering to their treatment or may have had a different physiologic response to treatment than other patients. On the other hand, patients who were able to achieve high levels of suppression may have adhered stringently to their treatment or had robust response based on physiology,” explained corresponding author Joshua D. Safer, MD, FACP, associate professor of medicine at Boston University School of Medicine.”

With this in mind, would you like to tell us all on this thread at what n/mols do male people on testosterone suppression lose their sexual urges.

And can you point to where that relates to female testosterone levels to support your claim:

“Testosterone is the reason men can get an erection and the reason men generally have a higher sex drive then woman !”

TL/DR

“Only a quarter of transgender women taking a regimen of spironolactone and estrogens were able to lower testosterone levels within the usual female physiologic range. Another quarter could not achieve female levels but remained below the male range virtually all of the time, while one quarter was unable to achieve any significant suppression.”

Please stop spreading misinformation on threads.

@PorcelinaV
I didn’t want to get drawn in on the prison issue since I’d been accused of derailing this thread and didn’t think it was relevant since it was clear this was about toilets and other generally public places. Prisons are a complex issue and I’d agree it needs careful thought for the safety of the regular women prisoners AND trans women so guidelines and risk assessments probably need to be considered carefully by those responsible here and as you say they probably should be housed somewhere completely different.

@BernardBlacksMolluscs thank you I’ll read up on this case when I have some free time later.

No, that was @JenniferBarkley .

’just want to use the bathroom in peace’ ( though personally I don’t want to share a 🛁 with anyone, not even my family).

I shared some of my photos of my stickering on a FB group recently and 'met', someone who'll be at WWW in Falkirk soon so that's great, always up for meeting new GC women.

Like sports leagues are starting to do, bathrooms should be split into 'open' and women's categories, with the latter restricted to female-only.

Plus the disabled bathroom of course, which is like the Paralympics.

You might also find this educational

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

for the avoidance of doubt, letting any man into a women’s single sex space makes that space unisex, even if he’s wearing eyeshadow

now explain to me why women should tolerate this risk?

TEAM STICKERING

yet, you tell us to go and google things and cannot provide any evidence to support your claims.

Why should you demand it of us, when you don't seem to be able to do it when asked?

That is hypocritical. I hope that makes sense to you.

As for prisons I’m not sure that’s relevant, unless the OP is stickering prisons too?

It was an example that where there is genuine risk, you don't try to solve the problem by creating new risks for women. That doesn't make any sense, and it's unfair.

Now with toilets, where is the evidence that trans women are even under threat?

But if there is a risk, then same principle as prisons, you don't try to solve it by creating problems for women.

We aren’t even talking about letting just trans women in. It will be any man in a dress can come in. Or really, any man that is "non binary" but "feels more comfortable" in the women's.

So you basically want to let ALL men use the women's toilets because of a problem we aren’t sure even exists? And if it does exist, it's a problem of male violence and why should that then be pushed over into women’s spaces?

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/transgender-sex-offender-who-attacked-29765751.amp

explain to me why this man was in the right place when he used the ladies loos please

You haven't heard of Katie Dolatowski? Now is your chance to be better informed, Google is a good resource for this although the algorithm is a bit suspect. But you should find the plain facts of the case.

@Helleofabore
They have mentioned a very specific thing I have not heard of and asked for my view, so I’d expect them to send me a link to it ideally. Otherwise if I go and find a link it may be the wrong thing and then they won’t get my view on the article they’ve requested. I hope that makes sense to you.

oh. no... google is your friend. Isn't that what you have told us! So you are a hypocrite now?

@BernardBlacksMolluscs perhaps I’ve missed that if so apologies - do you have a link to an article?

"My gosh you and or several other people have made a point already that most violent and sexual crimes are done by men."

You clearly didn't actually read the post you are responding to. You seemed to have missed this:

Considering we already know of several people who have indeed been reported for 'hate crimes' due to their social media activity which does include being 'untowards to paedophiles' and for stickering and using words that people don't like, I think that you might want to revisit your use of this report. Unless you care to go through the actual data and try to match up what was assaults (physical attacks) and what was "any criminal offence which is perceived by the victim or any other person to be motivated by a hostility or prejudice based on:"^^

Please provide the crime statistics for 'attacks' and what this includes. You posted an article, you couldn't even be arsed to post the report it discussed or give any comment on the report that contributed to the conversation.

I think that your lack of any evidence at all to support any of your posts is pretty clear to everyone. Just as your misogynistic posts have show readers probably more than you expect.

Please do keep it coming.

You don’t want to talk about how the thing that you think is right (men in women’s loos) directly led to a 10 year old girl being sexually assaulted then @Kit7 ?

Cross post. Thanks for answering, I'm glad you aren't a hypocrite.

Some people do tend to get upset when others show any kind of agency

Are cleaners only affected depending on the politics of the stickers, or are you generally against stickering, @Kit7 ?

To be honest I’ve never noticed pro or anti trans stickers. I’ll keep an eye out though in future. I’d be annoyed if someone put any stickers on my personal or business property