Stickering

why not just let people go to the toilet in peace.

That is exactly what women want - to go to the toilet in peace in an area that is exclusively for FEMALES, not males whatever said males are wearing, whatever hormones they are or are not taking, whatever cosmetic or surgical alterations they have chosen to make to themselves. Women are entitled to safety, dignity, privacy and comfort in spaces that were designed for their sole use.

What you are advocating for is for males to have the choice of all available facilities and for women to have no choice, particularly those women who, for whatever reason, cannot or do not want to share a space with a male.

I think given how much hate crime trans people have faced over recent years it’s much more likely a trans woman using them men’s toilets will be physically or sexually assaulted.

More risible bollocks, there are NO recorded instances of TW being beaten up of sexually assaulted in the men's toilets and I have scoured the internet looking for case, there isn't one, not one.

Several TW do use the men's toilets and guess what, they report NO incidents at all.

A group of prominent TW trans activists once went into the men's toilets to try and prove how scary it was and how evil the men in there would be to them and it backfired spectacularly, the men barely looked twice at them let alone resort to beating them up.

Does the thought of risk that trans women face because you expect them to use the men’s toilets not concerned you? Do you want them to be exposed to risk?

Answer to first part: No, it doesn't concern me at all my concern is to for the little girls one of whom had a knife held to her throat by Katie Dolatowski.

Answer to the second part: There is no proof of any risk whatsoever.

Your glib comment @Kit7 that if someone wants to attack you in the toilets they will anyway, what you are advocating is to make it even easier - great safeguarding, great comprehension about prevention. Do you take that attitude with anything else?

Finally, women are not on this earth as validation tools for males who think they are women, nor are they on this earth to act as human shields or become collateral damage.

If TW don't like using the male toilets or changing rooms that are there for their use, tough let them advocate for an extra space for their use do not presume to take spaces away from women.

@Helleofabore I’m really sorry if I’ve somehow offended you that has not been my intention . I came here as I was interested in the issues of this stickering and the rationale for why they do it. I didn’t realise this stickering was even a thing. I’ve seen stickers in general occasionally but didn’t realise it was an active thing people do to campaign for any cause.

I really do think there is a massive fear here of trans people and while the example of the person in Scotland attacking the girls and then being free to go into a women’s hostel is shocking this doesn’t mean all transgender people or all men would do this. It saddens me to find just how afraid some people seem to be on here of men and transgender people the vast majority of whom just want to get on with their lives.

I have done a lot of research about trans issues myself and i standby the view that lowering testosterone reduces sexual interest. This of course isn’t really the actual point and nor is anything I say or anything you say likely to result in a change of opinion and I’m sure you are no more than a medical expert specialising in hormones than I am, therefore it’s not exactly serving any purpose to continue going over a topic that isn’t either of our specialist areas.

I am genuinely interested in others views (hence why I’m here) and in no way want to shut down your views even if I have a very much opposed view to you, so if you got that impression I apologise.

Please can you tell us what your intention with the following approaches were about. Maybe I have misread them but I believe they are tactics that are meant to dismiss women's concerns. Happy to be corrected with your clarifications, readers can then read back through to understand better.

-Telling people they know little about trans people.

-Weaponising female transitioners to shame women from discussing and activating about keeping all female single sex spaces restricted to single sex. (this one is a very well used tropish approach from other areas of the internet)

-Telling women that these male individuals 'just want to pee' peacefully (how is this not telling women that their concerns are based on falsehoods?)

-Telling us that male's magically lose their propensity to commit sex crime (no evidence presented).

-Telling us that testosterone suppression reduces 'sexual urges' so these males are somehow magically safe. (This is clearly false misinformation)

-Misusing hate crime statistics which do not show what you want them to and do not support your claims about male's being 'attacked'? (as you asserted here 'I think given how much hate crime trans people have faced over recent years it’s much more likely a trans woman using them men’s toilets will be physically or sexually assaulted.")

-A plea for women to 'think of these male people' and put them first by letting them use female single sex spaces. (this is so clearly emotionally manipulative it doesn't need to be pointed out)

-A claim that all women do in the toilet is pee and wash their hands while missing the numerous needs that need privacy in a female toilet. (this is also dismissive as you don't seem to understand the numerous other uses of toilets by female people of all ages, and needs of those female people)

-Oh, I forgot that women expressing concerns are "buying into hysterics?"

Each of these approaches has been to dismiss women and their concerns. Through use of misinformation, emotional manipulation and shaming. You may not have ever thought about it, maybe you see this happening else where on the internet and thought it was a really good approach to copy. However, when I look at what you have posted here this morning, it is quite clear that you don't seem to have a good grasp on what women on this board have been discussing and building knowledge on over the past years.

By the way, here is a study discussing the strength disparities between males with reduced testosterone and women. Even with reduced testosterone a male can punch harder than the most powerful woman. And grip strength is a huge differential as well. Testosterone reduction does not mean that any male is weak and defenseless as women and girls are. I mean that is just two physical advantages. Longer arm length, on average greater height, the list goes on.

Again, why do you want to increase the risk to any female person in any female single sex space by allowing any subset of male people into them?

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

Your posts on this thread have been entirely about dismissing women's concerns. Shall l recap them for you?

Using your own logic, these males are no risk at all.

Why do you think that they shouldn't be allowed to access female prisons yet able to access any other female single sex space?

Do you now understand that they have fucking fully working dicks? That your attempts here this morning was purely showing that YOU are uninformed yet thought nothing of describing women's concerns as HYSTERICAL and dismissing them using your misinformation?

I’m not sure why you think I said you shouldn’t be able to express concern? I said people shouldn’t put stickers on other people’s property for any reason.

"someone who is intent on hurting or abusing people isn’t going to stop because they aren’t allowed in the toilets. If you want to hurt people you’re going to do it irrespective of toilet rules."

Here is the other tropish point. We see it all the time.

Please tell us kit, why you wish that women and children be put into the situation that they cannot either express any concern about a male being in the toilet which is a single sex space NOR can they ask that person to leave or have security to come and ask that person to leave?

Why are you so keen to increase the risk of women and children in this way?

And this is not even discussing women and children's need for privacy and dignity. ... which you have failed to even acknowledge. Because to YOU, all women and girls do in the toilets is pee. Showing YOU really have not got a clue about the reality of women and girl's lives at all.

@Helleofabore Thank you for the additional information.
Clearly it’s troubling that this person was able to access women’s refuges and change their name so easily to avoid ongoing monitoring. It also does not seem right that for them to be put in a woman’s prison which as I said earlier needs proper procedures and risk assessments for the safety of all concerned.

Here is something that I didn't know before. That Dolatowski had tried this before.

Yes, there were two little girls.

https://news.stv.tv/north/trans-woman-katie-dolatowski-jailed-in-mens-prison-low-moss-after-breaking-court-order

And at first Dolatowski was put in a women's prison.

https://www.clacks.gov.uk/social/corntonvale/

this one.

Yes.... women and children's concerns are hysterical!

Here is something that I didn't know before. That Dolatowski had tried this before.

"That attack came just weeks after she targeted another girl at an Asda store in Dunfermline."

https://news.stv.tv/north/trans-woman-katie-dolatowski-jailed-in-mens-prison-low-moss-after-breaking-court-order

You know.... google is your friend.... as you were so keen on telling us this morning.

And yes, anyone reading who wants to see Dolatowski without a filter, there is an image of this individual running in the link I posted.

No, they're really not militant at all. A minor act of rebellion maybe but not confrontational or violent in any way.

I suggest you go and google that person's name to get more information.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11995845/Trans-female-sex-offender-backed-Sturgeons-gender-reform-laws-held-male-jail-78-days.html

I mean here is another. It confirms it was a female toilet.

It is also known that this person was in a female prison at one stage. AND on release changed their name and accessed a female shelter without disclosing their name or their crime.

Busy now, but enjoying the observation that a man with beaver ears ‘may be using filters’

• The offender from the photo ( and it may have filters) on looks passably female so how would you police the toilet rules to stop her going into the women’s toilets in future.

"It may have filters" that's a good one, I'll give you that. If anyone else wants a laugh, click on Bernard's link.

"I’m not sure how stickering will have helped prevent this."

Stickering is way to raise awareness. It is just one way and if it is a sticker in the toilet, it can provoke thoughts about the situation that the person seeing the sticker has not thought about before.

It is a very simple marketing tool.

Now…. About those startling sex crime statistics of the current male transitioned UK prison population. Maybe this will also add to just how false the claim is that :

“Testosterone is the reason men can get an erection and the reason men generally have a higher sex drive then woman !”

And that "Most trans people take hormones to which reduce their sexual urges." I suggest that 'most' trans people (male) don't have fully reduced sexual urges at all.

It is dangerous and absurd to tell women and children that they are hysterical to be concerned.

academic.oup.com/bjc/article/62/4/1000/6370239

‘She Was Just Like A Lassie’: Analysing The Views of Cis-Women In Custody About Their Experiences of Living With Transgender Women In The Scottish Prison Estate

Matthew Maycock, 14 September 2021

The latest official figures indicate a fall in the average number of women in custody between 2011–12 and 2016–17, followed by a relatively static female average prison population of under 400 women since 2016–17 (Scottish Government 2020). At the time of ethical approval for the study (May 2019), there were 379 women in custody in Scotland, equating to 4.6% of the prison population, located in five prisons2 across Scotland. In May 2019 there were 17 transgender people in custody.

A very biased report. But some comments such as:

She’s been caught having sex and stuff in here, and I think that’s wrong. Well, supposedly, she had stopped taking her medication for a bit and, supposedly, something had happened.

There’s a transgender [wo]man (Susan). He worked in the...my work party. His views were totally wrong. He wanted to be in this hall because he wanted to have sex with loads of lassies.

And it’s been like...aye. And it’s been like, well, wait a minute, you’ve still got that strength and whatever. You’re still acting like a man here. Like trying to get like authority over you.

She was never female before until she hit [name of prison] and then decided that she wanted to be a woman because she couldn’t handle it. I think she puts a lot of it on.

Several participants discussed transgender people who had transitioned in custody, but who had reverted to their birth gender following release. For example, Isla below outlines her acceptance of a transgender woman (Ruth) in her hall, reflecting on the hurt that this caused given the efforts she and other prisoners made to accept and welcome this person:

We treated that lassie (Ruth) as female. I treated that lassie with the greatest respect. And I always said that, what do you need? And then when Janice came back and told us that, after she got lib, it really kind of…it hurt. It hurt us, because we tried to help her, we tried to make her feel welcome. I felt personally she was a man wanting an easy escape from the male estate.

Ella shared similar experiences about different transgender people she had got to know while in custody. This for Ella resulted in a wider scepticism about the transitions of transgender people in custody:

The last one to get out, back living as a man. The one before that got out, back living as a man, while he was in the hall, was telling people, I’m stopping taking my medication because I can’t get a hard on. I’ve not a problem living with trans people, it’s living with people who are manipulating the system and pretending to be trans.

Notice how many of the female prisoners point out how many of those males were still very sexually active. Some were effected by the hormone suppressants, but they simply stopped taking them.

Misinformation can be very harmful when it comes to women and children’s safety. Anyone who is still keen to spread misinformation, please stop.

I’ve read the article now thank you. As you’ve requested here are my thoughts on no particular order -

1. it should go without saying but clearly, what happened to this girl is awful and clearly upsetting for her and those around her.
2. I may have missed it because the article jumps around as it loads it’s many adverts but it doesn’t say whether or not this happened in the women’s toilets, mens or disabled
3. I’m not sure how stickering will have helped prevent this.
4. someone who is intent on hurting or abusing people isn’t going to stop because they aren’t allowed in the toilets. If you want to hurt people you’re going to do it irrespective of toilet rules.
5. The offender from the photo ( and it may have filters) on looks passably female so how would you police the toilet rules to stop her going into the women’s toilets in future.
6. The offender clearly has MH issues and I hope measures are put in place and lessons learned on how to avoid this incident better in the future. I hope they also get help they need in prison.
7. It concerns me that also the offender is clearly a bad person I’d be concerned about their safeguarding in prison. I did note that they also physically assaulted someone else while there. Would this have happened if they were in some sort of better holding facility?
8. Clearly it’s good that they weren’t put in a women’s prison
9. Other trans people or men can’t be held accountable for this person’s actions.
10. the sentence seems quite lenient.

Here is a study about relationship between libido and testosterone for any one who is interested. There is a pdf version available.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16670164/

The relationship between libido and testosterone levels in aging men.

May 2006. Travison et al.

What this shows is actually while there is a ‘correlation’ it is certainly NOT ‘all’ males with ‘low testosterone’ that have low libidos. And the difference between ‘low’ and ‘normal’ is about 0.12 mol/L.

Which as the chart I posted shows, means there is nothing really in it.

Any person relying on false information that any reduction in testosterone levels leads to ‘lower risk of sex crime’ is acting on misleading information considering how few males remove their testes AND how unreliable testosterone suppression is.

I’ve just seen a brand new row of ‘no pride without trans pride’ posters near my work. They weren’t there yesterday. All very professionally produced and printed. Who is paying for this?

Woman who stickers = literally Genghis Khan

Most of the people I see cleaning public toilets local to here are men.

Anyhoo stickering to some may be anti feminist.

The damage being done to women in the name of trans rights is far, far more anti feminist.

Regarding toilets.

What makes a male who comes out as trans in his 40s suddenly more vulnerable in single sex mens toilets?

He's not suddenly smaller, lighter, less strong or more vulnerable to sexual assault than he was the day before he came out. If he is wearing feminine make up and clothing then he is signalling that he is self assured enough to break the stereotypes of society's man box. Occasionally men will take offence at that and react aggressively the same way they might if a camp gay man were there instead.

But he's not suddenly as vulnerable as a female in the same situation. Pretending he is is part of wanting to be the idea in his head of what a woman is. But it isn't true his body is as male as it was the day before. However he's dressed it.

Aggressive men, homophobic men, may be violent towards men that they perceive are weaker than them. They may attack effeminate men or gay men, or boys or old men or disabled men or gender non conforming men or trans identifying men.

But that doesn't mean any of those vulnerable men belong in female single sex spaces. Absolutely find ways of making male toilets/prisons/etc safer and more pleasant spaces. That's important, but don't make female spaces less safe by putting men in them.

I thought the comments up thread about stickering being a legitimate form of protest when silenced elsewhere were thought provoking though. I understand that seeing that others share your view could be reassuring when everywhere else appears captured.

I don't like stickers either and this is what I also think.