Stickering

It is instructive just how deep the misogyny runs in posters like @Kit7 - the males desires must be prioritised at all times, women's needs, their desires, their choice? Nah fuck that. And justifying it all with the poor men/TW tropes with all the usual excuses too.

Interested in your thoughts on my (and others) comments earlier that stickering in a public bathroom is just making work for a cleaner doing a difficult job for minimum wage - and who's likely female.

Outside where graffiti or posters are left to decay, fine - I don't think it's a great thing to do but apart from making somewhere look less nice it doesn't actually matter. But I do think any stickers or graffiti that will create work for someone else is a bit of a shitty thing to do.

It will be interesting to see if @Kit7 will respond. I suspect it will not get a response because the reality is, who the fuck thinks that they can just hand wave away the hugely complex needs of women and children in using the female toilet in a way that gives them any fucking credibility at all?

I know there are posters on MN who have no children, light periods and who have lived very simple lives where they never have had to use the female toilet for anything other than the very limited range of activities as described as 'just wanting to pee in peace'. I know that they are shocked by the actual reality of many women and children who do in fact have needs outside that narrow range.

I also know there are some posters on MN who are male and fucking have NO IDEA yet feel they can lecture women on these things. I make no assumptions about what sex Kit is or what their life history is. But it is clear they and some other posters, have no concept of women and children's realities of toilet use.

Or they simply couldn't give a fuck!

I know @Helleofabore it's so fucking tiresome. Even without all of that why is it deemed so horrendous just to say No, I don't want to share toilet spaces with males, whatever modifications they have made to themselves? and have that view respected and accepted. Why is that choice questioned and beaten down? Are women not entitled to that choice? Why is it when women do not consent others take that as an opportunity to shame them?

In contrast men who say they don't want women in their spaces have that view respected and accepted without any pushback, why not women?

(Don't worry I know the answer to that but be interested to see if @Kit7 responds)

I've told this story before, but you seem to be new to the forum.

When I was seventeen, I came out of a cubicle in the ladies' toilet to find a middle aged man in a wig and lipstick and skirt standing at the sinks, rubbing himself up against the sink. At the time, I didn't know what a 'transwoman' was - don't think the term had been invented. It was very clear that my presence was providing excitement.

I said nothing, just got out as quickly and quietly as I could.

So, that's generally why I don't want to share toilets with a male, whatever he is wearing, and whether there are locked cubicles involved or not.

I keep some in my wallet to stick on top of any TWAW propaganda I see (university town, quite a bit of it)

And I mean that we can give you more instances of female people being abused in female single sex spaces AND that males who are trans ARE committing sex crimes if you are genuinely ignorant that they have been occurring.

Then you can tell us kit, genuinely, how many women and girls are you willing to consider acceptable collateral damage to allow males into female single sex spaces? How many will be enough for you to believe that the risk is not as 'low' as you believe?

1? Well we know it isn't 1, because you have just written :

"I really do think there is a massive fear here of trans people and while the example of the person in Scotland attacking the girls and then being free to go into a women’s hostel is shocking this doesn’t mean all transgender people or all men would do this."

So... actually, that is 2. 2 girls are not a high enough number to say 'enough, women and children need adequate safeguarding and something is failing here'.

So, how many will it be? How about in Scotland, the male who picked up and raped a girl who thought that they were a woman offering the girl a lift home? Does the fact that the male used their penis give you doubts that your 'males on testosterone have low risk'? I believe that male was on testosterone blockers and had developed breasts so... does that count towards the collateral number? it was just at the start of this year.... did you miss it?

Or the girls raped in the USA at their school toilets by a male student. Two different schools, because the mother of that male student wanted to cover up the crime. And get this.... the father of the girl was actively silenced by the school and shamed for stating that this should never have happened...

Are those two girls enough collateral?

What about the two girls, 6 and 9 (I believe there was a third as well) who were exposed to an aroused penis in a female only section of a spa. And when their mothers complained, one was offered a discount and told there was nothing the spa could do. And one was very vocal and was demonised across the world for complaining. And women actually told this mother that her daughter should have been told to not look at male's penises when they are aroused and being lowered directly in front of them in the spa a metre away.

Are those two girls also now enough collateral? Yes or no?

The list is fucking endless. If you are ignorant of these cases, you have not done balanced research at fucking all, you have simply believed the same fucking trope you have tried to deliver here on this thread.

Now that the issue is in the news, discussed broadly, and we have WORIADS, the situation has shifted massively.

Four or five years back, when no fucker would talk about it, when there was a total media blackout, when Mumsnet FWR was one of the very very few places anyone could whisper wrongthink, it was hugely important to raise awareness.

It always gave me great joy to see other stickers out in the wild - a little nod to other women, from other women, a little badge of courage.

Women working with no budget, pure grassroots action, in defiance of the prevailing orthodoxy, wanting to take a stand and non-violent protest action, stickered to get the word out.

It's worked.

Cereal seems a bit weird.

I mean, finding leaflets telling customers that the store has mixed sex changing rooms is a fair protest I feel.

Oh no, Gail. We were accused of that earlier today. The words 'pervert' was used, as if any regular poster on this thread would use that word on a thread...

I really cannot help feeling that there is some deep prejudice about the opinions of women who disagree with some posters coming through today. The lack of understanding about how women and girl's use toilet spaces leads me to think that some posters really have little understanding about the reality of women and girl's lives.

I wonder what some posters think I should have done when I had flooding periods that come with diarrhoea while my child was strapped into a fully laden pram (because I wasn't able to drive) that meant there was no fucking way that door could close and there was no alternative available to me. Except to have the door jammed open so everyone could see past the pram. I wonder... what the fuck should I have done? Oh.... I know... stay home and get someone else to deliver the items from the pharmacy and the nappies and the groceries. Because, sure, a person with no family in a strange country can easily do this!

The fact it happened regularly over a full year meant it was NOT just once this happened. But hey.... I don't seem to deserve any dignity or lessening of the deep abiding humiliation of these events at all. Because... what about the male people....???

Then I have had to toilet a disabled elderly women in a normal toilet when there is no available options. The only way is to have the wheelchair jammed in the door. I am sure that some posters would think that she deserved no privacy or at least the understanding of only female people either.

Or they believe that it doesn't happen because they have never had to do it or seen anyone else do it.

And we have had posters who have fucking delivered babies in toilets come and tell us on this board.

And I know of friends who have miscarried in public toilets and needed to have privacy and understanding of having only female people while they wash and dry their clothes.

The number of women, and I have done it myself, who need to dry clothes that are stained for a huge slew of reasons under the hand drier in a state of undress is a regular occurrence. I came across a women the other day in the pub just in her bra drying her shirt.

The list is endless. I can easily go further. There is so many instances where female people of any age simply do not want to have males in their spaces.

Even 'why don't you just want to wash your hands with male's around' lacks the knowledge and understanding of the bloody mess that often cannot be removed with toilet paper. Either people repeating that are male or have been blessed with light periods their entire life.

I suspect though that those who continue with the 'women just pee' or 'why are you so embarrassed to just wash your hands in a mixed sex toilets' simply have no knowledge outside their own limited usage. And there are some obvious reasons for that.

No no!!! toilets are fucking just for peeing in!

I don't think anyone's advocating interfering with the actual products that a business sells, like on cereal boxes. I think most people are thinking of street furniture, public spaces and in toilets.

Sure, but OP started the thread ostensibly surprised that her stickers were being removed. If OP can sticker politically, then I can desticker politically too and I don't see why that would surprise her.

Yes, of course you can, plenty of women do the same to pro TRA stickers, after all.

I feel like there has to be limits to stickering, I remember mid-covid I was in an ASDA, picked up some cereal, and the one behind it had a MASSIVE sticker on it almost covering half the box saying something like "If the mask works why the distancing, if the distancing works, why the lockdowns" or something like that.

Regardless of how anyone feels about whatever topic it is, on a lamp post or a wall or whatever, sure go for it, but on cereal?
Seems a bit 'V for Vendetta-esque' to me lol

The back of the loo roll holder is the best place, can only be seen when on the loo so they often stay for ages.

I post in the loos. Often on the sanitary bin as they aren't the property of the venue and only get changed every so often by the company that drives round to do it. Figure it will last longer. Also in loos because not on cctv!

You absolutely can remove them. And if you feel so strongly about it, you should. Go for it!

Sure, but OP started the thread ostensibly surprised that her stickers were being removed. If OP can sticker politically, then I can desticker politically too and I don't see why that would surprise her.

yes. Love it or hate it, it is a valid tool for communications.

Even those with female anatomy on them. I truly cannot believe that trope was rolled out. Ovaries and shadow images of clitorises in front of children.... THE SHAME WOMEN AND GIRLS, THE SHAME!!!!

this doesn’t mean all transgender people or all men would do this. It saddens me to find just how afraid some people seem to be on here of men and transgender people the vast majority of whom just want to get on with their lives.

Ah the famous NAMALT coupled with NATWALT has made an appearance. We know, but here's the kicker - how do you tell the difference between those who would and those who wouldn't? Do you not understand the very basics of safeguarding? Why do we screen everyone who wants to work with children or vulnerable people? Think really, really hard why.

Women just want to get on with their lives too not having to second guess whether there are males in their spaces. On the subject of concern do you @Kit7 have no concern for the women who are now excluded or are excluding themselves because they cannot share spaces with males? Do you have any concern for how much their lives are being diminished, how they who are already on the edges of society are being pushed out totally?

I bet you don't.

Back to the subject of the thread - stickering, there is a long history of stickers, posters and even graffiti being used to highlight causes, to protest, to raise awareness, it maybe a blunt tool but it is a tool that has been deployed widely for centuries.

And if you have done so much research you hand wave away everything women have raised, so show us. Give us the links to back your research.

Let’s actively discuss it.

Your glib dismissal of women in general has been very clear. Whether you intended it or not. Towards the majority of posters on this thread.

Not only that, you have rolled through all the tropish and false logic points, some times multiple in one post. And as gail points out and I missed in my list, you even have tried to tell women that males are going to do it anyway, so what is the point of putting back the social mores and/or creating laws to protect women and children.

And you have doubled down on your absolutely dangerous claim that males on testosterone have lower propensity to commit sex crime! How may studies would you like me to show you that lowering testosterone is inconsistent and doesn’t lower the risk these males have of committing sexual crime? Another 10? 20? Whereas you have produced nothing. Nothing to back up your continued assertions, which have come with (unintentional as it may have been) a dose of shaming tactics.

You claim to have done research about trans people, your first post on this thread was to tell a poster that they obviously knew nothing. Yet that poster has linked you up with information you claim you have never seen. And now you turn around and say ‘it is only one’!

Would you like more then? We have them. Here is a fucking hint: it is never just fucking one!

And many of us have done the fucking research because we have loved ones who are vulnerable and who may be trans.

And yet strangely testosterone levels historical and current are EXACTLY the reason that safeguarding is needed for women and children! Because it is now widely understood that testosterone gives all males physical advantages that blocking testosterone can never remove. That is why males should be excluded from all female single sex spaces.

You are trying to dismiss testosterone for some reason, it underlies the entire discussion!

I guess it makes a change from literally being Hitler!

That is exactly what women want - to go to the toilet in peace in an area that is exclusively for FEMALES, not males whatever said males are wearing, whatever hormones they are or are not taking, whatever cosmetic or surgical alterations they have chosen to make to themselves. Women are entitled to safety, dignity, privacy and comfort in spaces that were designed for their sole use.

What you are advocating for is for males to have the choice of all available facilities and for women to have no choice, particularly those women who, for whatever reason, cannot or do not want to share a space with a male.

This. As I said to this poster, it is a violation of my privacy and dignity for any males to use women's spaces. They tried to handwave that away. No one can decide for me what my boundaries are.

I really do think there is a massive fear here of trans people

No fear. Males should not be in women's spaces, the end.

I have done a lot of research about trans issues myself and i standby the view that lowering testosterone reduces sexual interest.

Well, your 'research' is clearly full of holes as Hellofabore pointed out, you have provided nothing to rebut her findings.

You would be happy to have the duck mask wearing piss protester share facilities with you would you? Google the protest outside the EHRC, especially revealing is when said protester pours urine over themself whilst wearing a long clingy dress their erection is clearly visible.

Or perhaps you'd be comfortable with Sarah Jane Baker out on life licence for torturing their victim, now thankfully recalled to prison after inciting violence against women.

Yeah, of course you would.