Page 2 | Mary Rose Museum's Queer Lense

1stWorldProblems · 2023-08-07T20:04:43+00:00

I bloody love this musuem & it's one of the few to use tech to enhance its exhibits with the "ghosts" it projects on the hull (as opposed to unnecessary "interactive" displays that 50-somethings are cool and break after a few months but which kids have seen better done on their tablets but that's another thread). This came up on my timeline today - viewing a number of their objects through a queer lens - or going on about 21st century concerns that can only be linked to the said object by tying yourself in knots. [[https://maryrose.org/blog/collections/the-collections-team/queering-the-mary-rose-s-collection https://maryrose.org/blog/collections/the-collections-team/queering-the-mary-rose-s-collection/]] SO tedious - the wreck and the objects found are fascinating without layering on 21st century superfluous info. It's not even interesting or original thoughts - just the usual guff.

terrywynne · 14/08/2023 19:38

londonmummy1966 · 14/08/2023 19:00

But as a historian she is utterly crap and gets her facts wrong all over the place.SHe managed to write a whole novel descriing Katherine Howard as the granddaughter of the Duchess of Newcastle rather than Norfolk - given it was pretty fundamental to her importance that she was a Howard that is really basic

Show quote history

I believe that it was the success of Northumberland not Newcastle. Not that it makes the blindest but of difference! I couldn't make it past the blurb to try reading the book. Her heroine also went to "school" with Katherine Howard at Trumpton Hall. Just why... You could have written about the girls being educated in the dowager duchess of Norfolk s house with the same effect.

She also wrote the historical article on Henry VIII's wives that appeared in the programme for the version of SIX I went to see (one of the touring shows), and repeated duchess of Northumberland in that too. Which is just laughable/depressing. Katherine was a Howard not a Percy. And there wasn't even a duchy of Northumberland at the time. There were only 3 dukes during her childhood, and only 2 by the time she married Henry VIII. It's been over a year since I went to the show and I am still not over ranting about this....

londonmummy1966 · 14/08/2023 19:00

SidewaysOtter · 14/08/2023 11:44

This is why I had to stop watching Lucy Worsley documentaries. I started off really enjoying her enthusiasm and freshness but when it was just one long “dress up and act out the plot” I gave up.

Which is a shame because I really liked her as a presenter, she is very engaging.

Show quote history

But as a historian she is utterly crap and gets her facts wrong all over the place.SHe managed to write a whole novel descriing Katherine Howard as the granddaughter of the Duchess of Newcastle rather than Norfolk - given it was pretty fundamental to her importance that she was a Howard that is really basic

SidewaysOtter · 14/08/2023 11:44

Rudderneck · 13/08/2023 22:39

I find it's very similar with tv documentaries. They are almost unrecognizable from when I was a child, it's all actors supposedly reconstructing events, or animated reconstructions. Even going to museums and such there is a real emphasis on actors in costumes you can talk to, and supposedly get "insight" into the feelings the real people had.

Show quote history

This is why I had to stop watching Lucy Worsley documentaries. I started off really enjoying her enthusiasm and freshness but when it was just one long “dress up and act out the plot” I gave up.

Which is a shame because I really liked her as a presenter, she is very engaging.

Sausagenbacon · 14/08/2023 11:31

my bug bear, which seems to be fashionable curating at the moment, is pale green labels with white writing. Placed very low down in the cabinet.

SabrinaThwaite · 14/08/2023 11:27

Warwick Castle is just a big theme park (it’s part of the Merlin Group).

Arundel Castle is much better - and you can get the touristy fix on their special History events (can recommend The History Man).

terrywynne · 14/08/2023 11:07

Not a museum per se but St Alban's cathedral were recently using "interactive" technology to project colour on to a reredos - simple but very effective in transforming the space to show how different itlooked in the past.

Personally I like the places that strike a balance, detailed information boards for those that want them and some interactivity (I do like a good interactive game part way round a museum). And I do think, used correctly, technology can bring a wreck/ruins/modernised place to life. But some places seem to have gone to far towards "theme park". I am always put off Warwick castle because its marketing looks so Disneyfied.

CrossPurposes · 14/08/2023 10:05

Beowulfa · 14/08/2023 09:30

I particularly enjoyed the Petrie Museum (Egyptian & Sudanese Archeology, part of UCL and near Euston) precisely because of its old-school traditional museum vibe. Just rows of wooden cabinets stuffed full of artefacts, many still with neatly hand-written labels. The mineral gallery in the Natural History Museum is like this too. There are still people left who are capable of looking, reading and learning without the need for pantomime excitement.

And cats.

londonmummy1966 · 14/08/2023 09:39

I went to the Acropolis Museum recently and was very impressed - it is possible to curate a modern museum without actors in costume and with written labels that provides a really good insight into a site. I especially liked the practical reconstructive work on paint colours which was clearly explained and demonstrated with simple examples alongside the statuary.

Beowulfa · 14/08/2023 09:30

I particularly enjoyed the Petrie Museum (Egyptian & Sudanese Archeology, part of UCL and near Euston) precisely because of its old-school traditional museum vibe. Just rows of wooden cabinets stuffed full of artefacts, many still with neatly hand-written labels. The mineral gallery in the Natural History Museum is like this too. There are still people left who are capable of looking, reading and learning without the need for pantomime excitement.

Rudderneck · 13/08/2023 22:39

terrywynne · 10/08/2023 14:32

I wonder how much this driven by the publisher's. I know someone who has written a history book for "trade" as opposed to academia and there was an expectation that they include "colour" to paint a pictfor their audience. If there isn't an eyewitness account of your exact event or location, then you are going to have to draw reasonable assumptions based on what you know of the period and over places/events. I do agree it should be clear from the writing though ie: there is no account for xx but based on other events it was likely like yyy. But maybe the publishers want something more definitely phrased.

Out of curiosity, which funeral did she describe? (I haven't read the book) they are sort of my mastermind subject so I might know if there is an actual account.

Show quote history

I find it's very similar with tv documentaries. They are almost unrecognizable from when I was a child, it's all actors supposedly reconstructing events, or animated reconstructions. Even going to museums and such there is a real emphasis on actors in costumes you can talk to, and supposedly get "insight" into the feelings the real people had.

DaphneDeloresMoreheadRidesOn · 13/08/2023 21:42

GrabbyGabby · 08/08/2023 08:44

Kew Gardens also at it.
https://www.kew.org/kew-gardens/whats-on/queer-nature

Its fucking plants!

I gave it a wide berth when we were there. All that neat classification is just so very colonial.

Hmmmm. If a daisy decides is identifies as a strelizia, is it moved into the tropical house ?

Boiledbeetle · 13/08/2023 19:35

SammyScrounge · 13/08/2023 18:52

@Boiledbeetle oh you are.naughty but I ❤️ you!

I have my moments!

SammyScrounge · 13/08/2023 18:52

@Boiledbeetle oh you are.naughty but I ❤️ you!

terrywynne · 10/08/2023 14:32

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 10/08/2023 12:50

Even worse is the problem I had with Joanne Paul’s book on the Dudleys, she doesn’t even say ‘must have’, she says did.
She is a tremendously talented historian with richly textured knowledge of her period which takes in all kinds of social and cultural material as well as the documents directly related to her subject. But I am constantly frustrated by not knowing whether things are documented or imaginative reconstruction. Do we know he felt like that because it was in a letter or are you assuming? Do you know that’s how the funeral looked based on a contemporary account or are you just basing it on what we know was generally done at funerals? If the latter it’s risky because you are writing about exceptional people in exceptional circumstances. If the former quote the source because it’s more immediate and vivid to hear it directly.
Don’t do it. If you want to write fiction write fiction. Otherwise make it clear what is speculation and what is evidenced or your book is useless to me. I won’t be buying her next unless she changes approach.

Show quote history

I wonder how much this driven by the publisher's. I know someone who has written a history book for "trade" as opposed to academia and there was an expectation that they include "colour" to paint a pictfor their audience. If there isn't an eyewitness account of your exact event or location, then you are going to have to draw reasonable assumptions based on what you know of the period and over places/events. I do agree it should be clear from the writing though ie: there is no account for xx but based on other events it was likely like yyy. But maybe the publishers want something more definitely phrased.

Out of curiosity, which funeral did she describe? (I haven't read the book) they are sort of my mastermind subject so I might know if there is an actual account.

viques · 10/08/2023 13:59

chekaboo · 08/08/2023 09:42

You cannot go to an art gallery, theatre or museum now without seeing something celebrating queerness, trans identities or something involving drag. I hate that I sound like Victor Meldrew but it's beyond parody.

I know. I am waiting to see the museum, gallery, theatre which marks and celebrates something that touches on my feelingz. I am not fussy, any of my not yet legally protected characteristics will do.

single parent ,

slight obesity

dodgy ticker

gardener

avid reader

difficult hair ( I totally missed out on that one re the Mary Rose it seems)

missing appendix

1950s teeth

I am pretty sure that each of my categories has the potential to reach the hearts of many brave souls, probably in more than one category too. My people, it’s time to come out from behind the sofa and show your true worth.

I bet if we all got together we too could fill Trafalgar Square, and probably spread out a bit too. I am not asking for a months worth of tacky celebration, or even a day ( I am also a woman and am truly grateful and celebrate that one day when half the worlds population is given recognition) a couple of hours would be enough for us to share our stories, and recognise that we have common ground. And it would be lovely if our contributions to the wider world could be acknowledged.

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 10/08/2023 13:22

The Vindolanda Tablets included bitching about the weather - 'Caelum crebris imbribus ac nebulis foedum' (something like 'the sky is foul with frequent rain and fog') and asking their Mums to send them cloaks, pants and woolly socks

Agricola moaned to Tacitus about it as well - 'the climate is wretched, with frequent rains and mists.' Shove off back to Rome then, no one asked you to invade (said the Brittunculi - (nasty little Brits) - according to the Vindolanda tablets.)

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 10/08/2023 12:50

terrywynne · 10/08/2023 12:34

I had this problem with the book On Savage Shores which came out recently. The premise was interesting - instead of asking what was it like for European coloniser to discover the Americas, it asked what was it like for the indigenous Americans to suddenly "discover" Europe. But some sections relied so heavily on "they must have felt like this", "it must have seemed" etc that just pushed having empathy and understanding for other people too far into pure speculation from a modern perspective.

Show quote history

Even worse is the problem I had with Joanne Paul’s book on the Dudleys, she doesn’t even say ‘must have’, she says did.
She is a tremendously talented historian with richly textured knowledge of her period which takes in all kinds of social and cultural material as well as the documents directly related to her subject. But I am constantly frustrated by not knowing whether things are documented or imaginative reconstruction. Do we know he felt like that because it was in a letter or are you assuming? Do you know that’s how the funeral looked based on a contemporary account or are you just basing it on what we know was generally done at funerals? If the latter it’s risky because you are writing about exceptional people in exceptional circumstances. If the former quote the source because it’s more immediate and vivid to hear it directly.
Don’t do it. If you want to write fiction write fiction. Otherwise make it clear what is speculation and what is evidenced or your book is useless to me. I won’t be buying her next unless she changes approach.

NeverDropYourMooncup · 10/08/2023 12:39

londonmummy1966 · 10/08/2023 11:26

@NitroNine - thank you for that. I have to say that I would expect any Asians found in Romno British cemeteries to have come from India on the somewhat easier trade route through the Red Sea and Egypt. My understanding of the Silk road at the time was that the terrain was such that it made sense to have traders who knew the area do different legs. I looked into it a bit when I wanted to do a DPhil on the clothes Roman women wore and had thought about doing a chapter on the Roman attitudes to silk. Sadly my tutor was very dissmissive of this type of "wimmins herstory" and suggested looking at the distribution of provincially minted coins accross the empire instead so I fled to accountancy as the more interesting option. I now wish I'd stuck to my guns a bit more.

I can imagine a lot of the auxilia sent to Hadrian's Wall not enjoying the climate although Moors might have come from the Atlas area and been a bit more used to the cold (although maybe not not the rain and not at such low altitudes...).

The Vindolanda Tablets included bitching about the weather - 'Caelum crebris imbribus ac nebulis foedum' (something like 'the sky is foul with frequent rain and fog') and asking their Mums to send them cloaks, pants and woolly socks.

terrywynne · 10/08/2023 12:34

Sausagenbacon · 10/08/2023 11:47

A House through Time is full of d olusoga saying he/She MUST have felt this way.
Then I turn off. Because it's not history, it's you putting your preconceptions on a dead person

I had this problem with the book On Savage Shores which came out recently. The premise was interesting - instead of asking what was it like for European coloniser to discover the Americas, it asked what was it like for the indigenous Americans to suddenly "discover" Europe. But some sections relied so heavily on "they must have felt like this", "it must have seemed" etc that just pushed having empathy and understanding for other people too far into pure speculation from a modern perspective.

Sausagenbacon · 10/08/2023 11:47

A House through Time is full of d olusoga saying he/She MUST have felt this way.
Then I turn off. Because it's not history, it's you putting your preconceptions on a dead person

londonmummy1966 · 10/08/2023 11:26

@NitroNine - thank you for that. I have to say that I would expect any Asians found in Romno British cemeteries to have come from India on the somewhat easier trade route through the Red Sea and Egypt. My understanding of the Silk road at the time was that the terrain was such that it made sense to have traders who knew the area do different legs. I looked into it a bit when I wanted to do a DPhil on the clothes Roman women wore and had thought about doing a chapter on the Roman attitudes to silk. Sadly my tutor was very dissmissive of this type of "wimmins herstory" and suggested looking at the distribution of provincially minted coins accross the empire instead so I fled to accountancy as the more interesting option. I now wish I'd stuck to my guns a bit more.

I can imagine a lot of the auxilia sent to Hadrian's Wall not enjoying the climate although Moors might have come from the Atlas area and been a bit more used to the cold (although maybe not not the rain and not at such low altitudes...).

ArabeIIaScott · 10/08/2023 08:04

Motorina · 07/08/2023 21:31

I was going to try and parody the nit comb bit. But, actually, it's beyond parody.

Here it is in it's full navel-gazing, ummm, glory:

The most common personal objects that we found on the Mary Rose were nit combs. There were 82 in total. These nit combs would have been mainly used by the men to remove nits from their hair, rather than using the comb to style their hair (which would have usually been covered up by a hat). However, for many Queer people today, how we wear our hair is a central pillar of our identity. Today, hairstyles are often heavily gendered, following the gender norm that men have short hair, and women have long hair. By ‘subverting’ and playing with gender norms, Queer people can find hairstyles that they feel comfortable wearing.

Ummm... And queer people finding hairstyles they're comfortable with (just like non-queer people do, remarkably) has what to do with nits, exactly?

Bwahahajhaha! That's fucking priceless!

Chersfrozenface · 10/08/2023 08:00

Ginmonkeyagain · 10/08/2023 07:55

Although Roman sexuality itself is a very interesting thing. All bound up in notions of the dignity (or indignity) of active and passive roles and dominance.

And the amount of choice the men and boys in the passive role had, or usually, didn't have.

goldensquaresofjoy · 10/08/2023 07:59

This seems a really strange thing to do. Can't a mirror or a nit comb just be a mirror or a nit comb?

Ginmonkeyagain · 10/08/2023 07:55

Although Roman sexuality itself is a very interesting thing. All bound up in notions of the dignity (or indignity) of active and passive roles and dominance.