Can we chat about reasons for not using trans name and pronouns?

Ah yes. Diana.

Must’ve not had much of an opportunity for sharing toe nail lacquer with besties at Eton.

Poor, poor Diana.

Well, I dont call my friends besties, because I’m not 7, and we really never discuss makeup, and barely wear any. We don’t have pillow fights either. We spend a lot of time talking about our caring responsibilities, our adult children, retirement plans and the menopause. Guess those bits of the female experience aren’t so attractive. But then , of course, I’m not a girl. Just an old hag.

@Zebracat that’s very interesting. The trans people I know seem to make great efforts to adopt stereotypical behaviour of their “new” gender — ie transmen try to act overly “masculine” and transwomen try to act overly “feminine”. I am very interested to read that you and other pp’s have different observations.

I noticed this trend a few years ago I. The fascinating Sunday Telegraph column by David/Diana Thomas (My Transgender Diary): as David proceeded week by week to document the transition, he/she changed language and focus - started to refer to her “besties” rather than her friends and started to write excitedly about lipstick and fashion etc. I commented on the change of language to an lgbt friend and he said “it makes sense, doesn’t it? When you join a new club, you want to fit in and adopt the mannerisms and dress etc of the people who already are in the club”.

I'm struggling with this currently. There are two transwomen in my wider circle of family and friends, who I see only rarely but come up in conversation. Both use she/her and have adopted female names; one I knew previously as 'he/him', and the other I didn't.

I don't care about names, but I am opposed to the use of 'she/her', which I believe are pronouns for women, not for men who want to live as women. However, I don't want to be the only one refering to these transwomen as 'he/him', or even 'they/them', when other family/friends would say 'she/her'. So mostly that leaves me avoiding talking about them at all.

You're quite right I should have specified one that's acceptable to use for humans. Fair point.

The extremely patronising response explaining what pronouns are and that language has evolved over time... not so helpful. One can still question the values that shaped them. Society is still far too gendered, but in the past was even more so. A gender neutral pronoun for people as standard, with sex specific ones when salient, would imo have been ideal.

Most of the teenagers I know who have changed their names - all girls - each have a compelling reason for leaving their old names behind. They have all chosen unisex names, including the one who wishes to identify as "male" - the rest say they are "non-binary".
I have no problem using their new names, but as they are children it does carry risk that their special needs - they are all SEN - get overlooked.
When I first encountered pronouns I couldn't believe it. I thought it was a joke. Then a couple of times I had to ask where a girl was, and send a friend to give her something. Socially, that's an incredibly awkward situation. These kids are either autistic or traumatised or both. I sometimes feel like pronouns are the least of their problems and so I should call them whatever they prefer. "Where is Red? The Timeout room? Okay, please could you take their backpack to them and say I hope they feel better soon?"
More often however, their sex is relevant.
If someone hits me, I will use sex-based pronouns to describe the incident. In that context "They hit me" is even more problematic.

TheClogLady · Today 09:19

Re your list, my dad had a friend called Beverley Howden, a burly farmer. He lived in Howden, near Beverley.

Anyway, in general, I'd use a name which a person told me, however strange and awkward. Also in general, I wouldn't pander to pronouns, if a trans person were not present.

However: my daughter brought some friends home, a few weeks ago. I thought that Polly was a butch girl; skirt, girl's shoes, long hair with a sort of partly shaved mullet.

It later transpired that Polly is "a biological boy, but a real girl..."

After a bit of conversation, where I brought up Maya, Alison Bailey, K Stock and Pink Leggings Rapist & Katie Dolatowski. ( The kids are ten, so it was a bit simplified). To avoid tears, I agreed to call Polly "her" and she seems to understand that there are some bad players out there.

She had a look at a report on the lady assaulted at Women Won't Wheesht Aberdeen and was angr that the Police have let him off.

So, I'm not sure if it's progress entirely.

@Inamuddle36 No , no mistake.

Well yes, but I was in innocently thinking ‘lady name’ rather than…

… something most definitely male.

🤢

I don't believe Pearl Jam is a feminine term. I believe it's ... quite the opposite.

'Some women are happy to use female pronouns for male people as a courtesy. I choose to only refer to male people using male pronouns because biological sex is meaningful.'

@Inamuddle36 my experience is more like @Zebracat 's - that interests of the trans people i know tend to remain more typical of those associated with their sex - eg i know a young transmam whose main interests are art, drawing and making clothes. And an older nonbinary person who likes lots and lots of kinky sex - they're male.

👍🏼

I bet there are loads more too!

Another one saying a name is just a name.

I could change mine by deedpole to Bobcat Goldthwaite next week if I wanted to and we have that right.

But as Shakespeare said 'A rose by any other name...'. A name magically changing one's pronouns is my brick wall. No, it doesn't.

All this applies to grown ups by the way. I don't believe in social transition for minors.

@Zebracat i think you mean transWOMEN tend toward stereotypically “feminine” activities and occupations and transMEN tend toward stereotypically masculine activities and occupations — right? — in both cases to accentuate their migration toward another gender.
In the case of the youth I have described: said youth has no stereotypically male interests (other than to slouch and occasionally experiment with cursing) — I don’t think anyone would recognise the youth as a “boy”, hence the constant sense of cognitive dissonance I feel at the moment when looking at and speaking with a girl who requires I accept she is a boy.

This issue of pronouns is a struggle. I’m always getting criticised by DC for not using the preferred pronouns of either their friends or even of well known NB celebs (eg the eternally youthful looking Mae Martin).

It feels crazy that I’m expected to constantly ensure that I refer to Mae as ‘they’ or DC’s friend’s preferred pronouns when Mae or said friends do not know that there is a conversation going on about them in our household! But still told over and over again that it is only ‘respectful’ to do so. Why?

cloglady
Queens of the Stone Age

@Inamuddle36 I wasn’t criticising you. I’m sure there are transpeople who like more stuff typically associated with their chosen gender, but, the transwomen I’ve met have tended towards stereotypically masculine occupations and interests, think tech, rugby, trains and the transmen towards stereotypically feminine, like nursing, literature, makeup. So my kids would be laughing that Stacey is such a girl cos they got lost, when actually Stacey’s a lorry driver, who used to be Stan, or that Leo is such a boy cos they like tailoring, but their suit is pink and they look a lot like Kylie in it. Not outing anyone, fictitious names and examples.

I get puzzled looks and then notice the new people switch to a more female name thinking they must have misheard me (ie if I say “this is John”, they reply, after a pause, “oh hello Joan”.

For years I habitually gave Starbucks a particular male name to go on my coffee cup (it was an in joke about an old Guardian column).

Very rarely did I get a cup that had the name on it that I had requested, it was almost always a feminised version or diminutive.

Human brains look for a female
person if they hear a stereotypically female name, and will autocorrect if something seems incongruent!

I presume this incongruence is one of the reasons that rock stars and rock bands have embraced ‘feminine’ names and/or terms?

(I actually made a little list!)

Alice Cooper
Marilyn Manson
Rachel Bolan
Stacey Blades

Molly Hatchet
Jane’s Addiction
Alice in Chains
Pearl Jam
Thin Lizzy
Good Charlotte
Roxy Music
Joy Division (OK, that one is a stretch!)
Iron Maiden
Queen

@Zebracat re comments on “Stereotypical behaviours” — I mentioned our houseguest is not “stereotypically masculine” in order to underscore the cognitive dissonance of calling a teenage young woman a “boy” or “man”. When I introduce the youth using the new name, invariably I get puzzled looks and then notice the new people switch to a more female name thinking they must have misheard me (ie if I say “this is John”, they reply, after a pause, “oh hello Joan”. As the youth is from another country, I don’t think she notices but it is clear no one who has met her during this visit thinks she is male. It is, indeed, very difficult for me to maintain this fiction but I endeavour.

I’ve used they and them for a long time. It was often useful in work when talking to parents about their children and not wishing to identify which child when they had a mix of the sexes( or when I’d forgotten it’s sex), feels fine to me. There are transitioned people amongst my dcs friends and I wouldn’t want to start a war by “misgendering”. The constant commenting on stereotypical behaviour of the transitioners is tiresome “ oh he’s such a boy” blah blah , as is the acceptance that anyone might choose to change gender. I do challenge that. My Dd recently suggested ds should change gender as our new dog barks at him and clearly feels a bit threatened. I replied tartly that the dog recognises sex not gender.

I am confronted with this question at the moment as we are hosting a trans youth (child of family friends) — born and lived female til age 17 and now identifies as male, refers to self as a boy (or “gentleman”) and has asked to be called by a male name. I feel like I have gone down a rabbit hole. The youth does not appear to be male (despite a binder). We all use the new chosen name (a challenge at first, but no problem for me to use whatever name someone prefers). However, I cannot refer to the youth as the “son” of my friend nor can I use any masculine references without feeling a disconnect between my words and reality.
One of my children (thoroughly captured by trans ideology though not (to my knowledge) questioning her own gender) makes efforts to refer to the youth as a boy and a “good lad” etc even when such words are not necessary as if to underscore her acceptance that this young woman is a boy. At some point, I want to ask for an updated definition of the word “boy”. This youth was born female, looks and acts female (ie is not typically masculine in any way) and is genetically female. I just so t understand any definition of “boy” that can apply to this youth. (Perhaps needless to say, this youth is somewhere on the autism spectrum and has other mh challenges.)

As the parent of teenagers where people in their friendship groups change their name and gender very frequently.... I find the deadname thing ridiculous and coercive. Using someone's "deadname" is seen as a heinous crime even when nobody has actually told you they've changed their name. If anyone has read the echo chamber by John Boyne, there's a chapter where a character is baffled when told by a woman he's never met that the man he previously worked with in that office never existed. It turns out of course the "woman" is the man and is rewriting history by claiming he's always been a woman. This is a comedy however it was scarily close to my real life. The ability for us to be clairvoyant as well as being willing to ignore our own knowledge, memory and eyes is expected by trans people.

My husband and I both have names that are normal for either sex. Went to a wedding where we knew the groom, apparently the MOB had a big say in seating arrangements. It was strictly alternating male/female except on our table where I had a woman each side of me and DH had a male each side of him.

Agree.
There are plenty of names, as @XDownwiththissortofthingX listed, which are unisex, at least by sound, even if the spelling is different. Choosing a name that is exclusively associated with the female sex is a political act.

Having said that, you can change your name to anything you want and in practical terms other people have to use it so we know who is being addressed or talked about. But as a pp said, the previous name shouldn't be a big secret.

You can't change your sex, of course.