Reddit thread by a Psychiatrist about youth gender medicine studies

The MOD is concerned at the use of puberty blockers, reflecting on how the puberty hormone rush often helps fix identity. The reddit mod. This seems fantastical that a reddit mod might think that. Out loud.

Medicine is full of interventions that were tried without evidence. One of the most compelling books I ever read on the subject was “Normal at Any Cost” by Cohen & Costello. It’s about the use of growth hormones to make short boys taller and tall girls grow less so they don’t become tall women. It was 100% heterosexual stereotype enforcement. And it turned out that it didn’t even work to affect height much and killed many of the boys because Creuzfeld-Jakob disease got into the hormones, which were initially manufactured from human cadavers.

short story is that it doesn’t take that many schmuck endocrinologists to do a lot of damage to children. What we are seeing is just the 21st century version of the same sexism.

and once they’re on that path, pride and an inability to admit error leads to demands for more and more contrary evidence while justifying staying on the chosen path.

Yes, that is also my understanding of how it arose.

But that never had anything to do with evidence based medicine. But then they act as if it is the standard, and there needs to be evidence to deviate from it?

@Rudderneck
But from what I can see, and I know this is largely true, the whole idea of blockers and hormone therapy in these cases was basically made up. It was never evidence based. So it seems like it should really raise the question, why did this ever start in the first place, because some person imagined it would be effective? Rather than seeing that as the standard.

my read of how this played out is that the Dutch researchers thought of repurposing puberty blockers (used for precocious puberty and off label even there) for young females with dysphoria who were distressed by the idea of going through puberty. And then – in one of the many instances where a single individual ends up having a massive sway – Norman Spack heard about the “treatment” at a conference and realised that it would help male transitioners “pass” as female if they never went through male puberty. Strong thread of homophobia and the belief that effeminate gay men are “really” women, leading to a desire to ensure they pass as such in a way that is acceptable to (notionally) straight men.

the imperative to transition medically comes from the homophobic strand of the ideology. In contrast the “some women have penises” imperative comes from the porn-addled straight male side of the ideology. That’s why they are inconsistent – they come from different places.

It's really interesting, as are the responses. It seems like there are many people in the medical field, who are basically moderate, but have real concerns.

Having read through a lot of the discussion, two things continually strike me:

Firstly, the continued use of the idea of "real trans people" by these medical persons, without any real sense of what that actually represents. Many talk about gender dysphoria, but are they saying that they think dysphoria is caused by being a trans person?

Secondly, many talk about the lack of good evidence for hormone treatment, and there is some back and forth on weighing harms against benefits, which is all well and good. But from what I can see, and I know this is largely true, the whole idea of blockers and hormone therapy in these cases was basically made up. It was never evidence based. So it seems like it should really raise the question, why did this ever start in the first place, because some person imagined it would be effective? Rather than seeing that as the standard.

It's been up for a good 12 hours, and it looks like the poster was in communication with the mods even before posting it. So if it was going to come down I reckon it would have by now.

Looks like the mods are keeping a close eye on responses too so it probably won't turn into a complete bun fight, which is what usually brings these posts down.

Brilliant!

That may be the single most interesting thing I've read on this subject in a long time. First thought...how could Chen, the study's instigator, derive such a false positive conclusion, whereas the author of this thread sees the exact opposite?

Spectrum/neurodiverse teens who've been pushing for transing may be headstrong, but they're super intelligent. They will be reading this thread, and coming to the same conclusion as the author.

I've suspected for a while that the levee will really break not when we adult GCs force a reckoning, or the sunk costs of the swayed elites is cashed in.

But when a critical mass of Generation Alpha so no thanks in no uncertain terms to this madness. And when the target cohort for medicalisation start to rebel. And when the detransitioners' voices reach fever pitch and class actions roll over the old guard.

That's why Sunak's delay to tabling the Trans Conversion Ban legislation is critical. Every day, stuff like this comes in, more detransitioners surface, the multi nation endocrinologists dire warnings recently get made common knowledge, and the most recent NHS in England stern advice to halt Active Affirmation and revert to Watchful Waiting predominantly, is fully promoted.

Every day, the reports and evidence mount. Every day if Sunak is receptive in any way, he must see the Ban could so backfire if Watchful Waiting is effectively criminalised.

This thread will be like a dirty bomb going off in the Trans/Reddit community.

Never before in my decade of getting progressively more despondent on this subject have I been so positive that we're on the cusp of a famous victory. It may take another 5-10 years, but I really feel it now. And this is coming from someone who's a natural glass half empty personality.

This. Will. Not. Hold.

Is this likely to stay on Reddit? Can it be saved in case it's deleted?

Thank you @miri1985 that's a very worthwhile paper.