This is just vile NHS again

BadJoke · Yesterday 21:29

Trans women are legally entitled In woman’s bathrooms.

Toilets / lavatories, as so many others have pointed out. Yes, places can allow transw into the toilets and other female only spaces, but equally, they are legally allowed to exclude them, if they wish.

Joyce is wrong about the EA2010.

Only if you've flipped the word "wrong" to mean "correct"; are you Humpty Dumpty?

All public sector bodies, including the NHS, follow the law.

Well, they may choose to follow one part of it and to eschew the other, by which, they may, perfectly legally, exclude males from women's facilities.

Always the threads about ‘bathrooms’ (or toilets as we call them in the UK) for you isn’t it @DadJoke

we see you

...and it is not in the least bit flattering to be in receipt of such attention. It does not validate your femaleness, nor validate your attractiveness.

Growing up female you become very acustomed to, and have a super awareness of, predatory male behaviour. It doesn not have to be overt physical assault to be predatory. To be preyed upon is to sense the ways in which you are being viewed; of the way you are having sexual fantasy projected upon you.

From an early age you become conscious of this - even if still too young to be able to articulate exactly what is going on. I recall getting the bus to school, age 11, and there was often this guy at one of the bus stops ( I used to have to get two buses to school) that totally gave me the creeps. He would look at me in a very unpleasant way - and was seedy and unkempt ( he haunted my imagination for years afterwards - i can still picture him now).

Once at school we'd be out on the netball court ( which backed on to a public park) and there would be guys beyond the railings exposing themselves, or throwing the pages of pornographic magazines onto the court. As you made your way home - men would shout lewd comments from taxis or other vehicles.

We all know when a man is motivated by something sexual. We sense it instinctively.

The situation has only escalated in more recent years. Prior to the current situation there was little to no public awareness and the phenomena of people 'transitioning'. It just wasn't a thing. In the public imagination there were a few 'transsexuals' ( largely males of homosexual orientation who had undergone the 'full works') and most people would never come across such a person.

Now the trans umbrella has been expanded to include those who would previously have classified themsleves as cross dressers. People are only just becoming aware of this, and now it is far more likley that we will come across such people in our everyday life. These people are clearly male and are perceived as such.

This changes everything.

Floor to celing cubicles but on a mixed sexed corridor of such cubicles does not solve the problem; especially in the night time economy.

Why should we be installing a system which does not work as well - when the obvious solution is to provide a small number of 'gender neutral' cubicles or facilities instead ( in addition to the single sex facilities)

Your post is revealing of the way the social contract has broken down - and why the equality act needs to be updated and tightened up. A male who enters in to a female only space knows exactly what he is doing, and doesn't care. Why on earth would anyone expect a woman to feel comfortable in such a situation?

Third spaces and gender neutral facilities are the obvious solution.

Agree.

alertness

....and if there is an aobvious male - posing as a woman - this can trigger the responses even more because we detect duplicity.

I'm not sure it is conditioned so much as an instinctive weighing of the risks. We all do this in every encounter. We all assess the situation, even if unconsciously, to determine our position, or our safety.

I think that one of the negative impacts of early infringemnt of our boundaries, as children, is that we can lose our instinctive radar for wrong un's and for risky situations.

Just being male is enough to trigger alartness in women - for obvious reasons.

I suggest your read up on your case law.
https://oldsquare.co.uk/hard-cases-make-useful-law-can-trans-people-lawfully-be-excluded-from-single-and-separate-sex-services-robin-white/

Telling yourself that mate doesn’t make it true. See the posts above which reflect the actual reality not your wishful thinking.

And yet despite my supposed wrongness about the EA2010, pretty much every single bathroom allows transgender women in women’s bathrooms and has done for decades without legal challenge, because it’s the law - it’s not a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

If a 'transphobe' is someone who will not unconditionally pretend that a male is a female at all times upto and including to their own detriment, exclusion and harm? For the male's benefit? Selflessly and somewhat masochistically, embracing someone else's enforced fiction over their own perceptions and obeying compelled speech and enactment of a belief they do not hold.

Yeah colour me one of those.

I don’t think ‘Joyce’ is ever wrong about anything. She is bright as hell, does thorough research and has equally bright people around her, including lawyers. She’s too smart to put out an argument or point that could be demolished or dismissed.

@DadJokeTrans women are legally entitled In woman’s bathrooms. Joyce is wrong about the EA2010.Both the Equality Act 2010 and the Gender Recognition Act set out situations where it is lawful to provide single-sex services and exclude people with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. They include sleeping accommodation, toilets, sports;''Circumstances where a person of one sex might reasonably object to the presence of a person of the opposite sex.''28(1)A person does not contravene section 29, so far as relating to gender reassignment discrimination, only because of anything done in relation to a matter within sub-paragraph (2) if the conduct in question is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.(2) The matters are—(a) the provision of separate services for persons of each sex;(b) the provision of separate services differently for persons of each sex;(c) the provision of a service only to persons of one sex.https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/schedule/3/paragraph/28

Trans women are legally entitled In woman’s bathrooms. Joyce is wrong about the EA2010.

@DadJoke Are you saying that you believe that any man who says he's a woman is legally entitled to use women's toilets? I assume that's what you mean by 'bathrooms'. Are you American? What makes you an expert in UK law?

Religious and pseudo-religious beliefs do not undermine these rights.

Your pseudo religious belief that any man who says he's a woman magically becomes a woman does not remove women's right to single sex spaces. And you cannot compel the rest of us to share your belief.

You are so fucking wrong! This is pure Stonewall law with absolutely no basis in the EqA.

A reasonable person would regard the act of labelling a toilet or changing facility as 'Women' or 'Men' or any variant of them is to declare that facility a single sex space under Schedule 3 Part 7 of the EqA. Paragraph 28 specifically extends the exception to deny access to anybody who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

Away to hell with your misrepresentation.

Yes, you are a joke.

Trans women are legally entitled In woman’s bathrooms. Joyce is wrong about the EA2010.

All public sector bodies, including the NHS, follow the law.

Managers do not have to sympathise with racists, homophobes or transphobes.

Religious and pseudo-religious beliefs do not undermine these rights. If your religion says you can’t share a bathroom with someone with another protected characteristic who is permitted to be there, then a reasonable accommodation can be made (you can use a single occupancy loo, for example.)

If anyone (regardless of gender) looks under a cubicle, exposes themselves, or harasses someone just going about their business, call security or the police.

Yes, women have evolved over thousands of years to be wary of men, a made up ideology isn’t going to change that.

I agree. But I suspect women who believe in gender ideology might feel pretty edgy in a situation where an obvious man but he's wearing a dress, comes into a public lavatory. They might hide it perhaps, but it will be there, because women are conditioned to feel edgy in such a situation.

And for those people who argue for floor to ceiling cubicle doors, may I add to other arguments I've seen on here about why they aren't a good idea.

Something I noticed on the telly the other day: At Heathrow, the security staff/police searching for a suspicious item reported to have been left in the toilets were able to look under the cubicle doors.

Look up on Twitter X a young UK disabled Woman called Henrietta Freeman.

She has a health condition that means she needs personal care.

She requested female support and has been harassed by Trans Activists on-line.

“Frieda” Wallace is one if these abusers. He is an NHS passenger ambulance driver, who is a Trans identifying male to female, and has been sending her pornographic photos of himself being fellated.

Frieda was at Manchester Pride today.