If you're non-binary...

I'm aware there are idiots everywhere. I judge the situatio on the people I know.

I know a lot of utterly batshit feminist idiots but I dont judge all feminists by that standard.

Dont all of us judge from our lived experience?, is that not how the world works?

There are attention seekers in all walks of life. My friend is not an anecdote, hes a person with lived experience. His feelings are no or less valid than anyone elses.

I think we have indirectly established that you and I have a very different opinion on what is 'rude'.

I am sure you believe that your explanations have been coherent. But they are not. Now, this might not be because YOU cannot explain it. It is likely that you are simply repeating what you have read and/or been told.

That others find it incoherent should be an indication that it is incoherent at concept level. Does it not strike you as weak that you told us it has no set definition? Now, that is not meant to be personal criticism. It is that this identity is exactly that. Weakly defined.

You keep mentioning that I keep including the 'law'. I am doing so to bring to people's attention that this group is seeking to change laws to suit themselves. An identity that is indefinable. This is a board discussing the impacts and conflicts on particular groups on the rights and protections of all female people. Why is my mentioning the 'law' an issue for you?

And please indicate where I have 'spoken for all'?

But Katherine is her legal name, that's a fact.
So why should I change my language?

This is silly. Pronouns denote sex, or MTF trans people wouldn't want to be "she/her". I don't validate them either.

It isnt, but it is in a discussion where that term automatically has connotations.

I know you dont. But they do. So it's a total impasse. And who wins? You. You hold all the cards.

I actually think despite other posts that her post about making adjustments and compromises to the NB people she knows was fair. Thats a whole world awa from 'no'.

I dont think anybody wants the kind of attention that being trans or nb in this current society gets you. The trans people I know want anything but attention.

The plural of anecdote is not data. Check out Twitter and Tiktok.

But Katherine is her legal name, that's a fact.
So why should I change my language?
I was being flippant about the change of language but who decides a reasonable expectation?

Pronouns might suggest sex to you, biologically and legally but the whole point of their gender identity is that they have chosen not to identify with their pronouns. I would have more sympathy with the bigger argument for women but I find the I'm not changing my language argument petty.

Change our language is emotive because it leads back into discussions about the erasure of women and connected topics

Well yes, so why imply that being "emotive" is wrong? You literally expect people to change the way they use language. I don't believe in gender identity ideology. I don't believe in "non binary". I don't believe in pronoun ownership.

It's not about the law. You are talking about the law, I'm talking about reasonable expectations. Pronouns denote sex.

Not sure why the eye roll, I was agreeing with you, and acknowledging that I think it's a separate conversation where sex plays a factor.

So if someones name is Katherine but prefers Katie I can just repeatedly call them Katie because that's what the law says and she cant change my language?
Or do we only not change when it doesnt suit us?

Change our language is emotive because it leads back into discussions about the erasure of women and connected topics, (most of which I would agree with you on, as I've said upthread).

My issue with that is sports is based on sex not gender. Nobody decided to separate them because of what they were, it's to do with strength and ability and fairness.

Yes it's my issue too, obviously 🙄 I was just pointing out that it isn't common for people identifying as "non binary" to acknowledge that sex is relevant to anything.

I do think people are entitled to have their pronouns heard and used.

I don't believe people own "pronouns". They just denote sex. So no I don't believe they are entitled to have others change their language to validate them.

I dont think anybody wants the kind of attention that being trans or nb in this current society gets you. The trans people I know want anything but attention.

'Ultimately, people should not be shamed for not using someone's pronouns if they are not harassing or abusing the person. To shame someone for this is, in effect, prioritising that non-binary person's need for having their personal belief accommodated above another person's needs. '

Could you explain to me how you saying that is any different to me saying people should? It's your belief. What makes you the authority?

I actually respected your post earlier eve though I didnt agree but this persistence of trying to belittle me is getting tedious. If you dont like my views thats fine, we dont need to agree.

I think the level of take up with NB identities in young women shows a failure of tackling gender stereotypes quickly enough (we were making good headway) and women and girls not talking honestly to each other about how they really feel.

There's also loads of other factors with girls such as internalised misogyny, shame of being lesbian or bi, peer pressure.

There's so many in fact that I think declaring an NB identity is just saying 'you are human' and kind of is meaningless really.

In women's football it seems to mean you are the girl without long flowing hair. 🤣

People can label themselves as non binary - but it doesn't actually mean anything. It doesn't mean 'they are' non binary - if you get my point.

Non binary has nothing to do with the material reality of life on earth - it is a contemporray descriptor for people who want to express themselves in individual ways according to their nature. The thing is we live in a modern liberal society in which most expressions are now tolerated and even fully accepted. All of us are 'non binary' in that we are all a mixture of differnt traits and preferences. None of us is wholly a stereotype.

This. It's meaningless, at best. At worst it's attention seeking, self obsession and power tripping.

Thank you for clarifying. I am glad that you have clarified that it is purely your personal belief to uphold someone's expectations as far as their identity is concerned.

There are many reasons that people will not use someone's preferred pronouns. If you have an issue and have judged someone as being somehow 'lesser' for not respecting that request, well that is your own issue stemming from your own beliefs and boundaries.

Ultimately, people should not be shamed for not using someone's pronouns if they are not harassing or abusing the person. To shame someone for this is, in effect, prioritising that non-binary person's need for having their personal belief accommodated above another person's needs.

No, it doesnt sound anything like that.

Because that's how I feel.

Incidentally, I dont know many NB or trans people who would kick up a huge fuss if someone messed up a pronoun unless it was done spitefully.

I've had my words policed more in this thread than by any of those people.

It appears you can police words and thoughts and actions when it suits but not when it doesnt.

Maybe we should just do away with sexed pronouns completely. If everybody and everything became ‘dit’ ‘dey’ ‘ dem’ etc, no one would have any reason to be offended or upset.

This wouldn’t effect single sex spaces, of course, because they would be labelled men and women.

"People are entitled to respect" sounds precariously close to "others must concur with my belief system and pay lip service to it even if they profoundly disagree.

Nobody is entitled to 'respect' - if by resepect you mean subservience.

Why do you think people should respect other people's identities rather than just accept that people have them.

Of course I am. But i dont like it as a term.

In the same way we are all NB but dont identify as so.

It's not prejudice, its spotting a pattern. I havent mentioned the law yet you have referenced in several times.

'You have explained nothing though. You have thrown a lot of words and phrases around and then declared that there is no 'definition'. You are here telling us what NB people think, you are not NB yet you seem to be speaking for them.'

That's just rude. You cant have it both ways, you and several other posters asked me how NB works so I told you my understanding. I didnt volunteer that information myself. I dont speak for anyone. You on the other hand appear to speak for all. There are plenty of people who will respect pronouns.

I have provided a coherent description. You just dont like it or think it exists. That's really not my problem. I'm not here to be approved by you.

I have taken on board your views even when they are different to mine and you have been nothing but rude to me.

I am definitely not gender critical.

You aren't in any way critical of externally imposed sex stereotypes?

My issue with that is sports is based on sex not gender. Nobody decided to separate them because of what they were, it's to do with strength and ability and fairness.

I'd quite like to swim in the fast lane at the pool but I'm not at that speed so I cant.

While i agree pronouns should be respected, i think when it comes to these issues they have to either compete with their sex or if they choose to, in non binary. That way if a nb biological woman chooses to compete with biological men the disadvantage is their choice.

In the same way I dont believe you can change sex but I will accept that they identify their gender as they.

I appreciate that's a muddled view of thinking.

Is changing your pronouns actually going to liberate you from anything, or is it likely to turn every encounter into a charged confrontation where everyone either acquiesces to your request or fails to do so?

Is using 'they' actually going to change how people respond to you? What unforeseen consequences might there be? Is it possible some people may resent being compelled and therefore avoid interaction?

Excellent points.