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Original poster

If you're non-binary...

457 replies

danyellspanyell · 01/08/2023 13:17

What does it mean? What does it mean to you?

I'm not looking for GC responses to this - the GC take is obvious. I genuinely want to understand what this means.

This came up on my Instagram and the comments were full of people saying they have the same struggle and I honestly can't get my head round what it actually means to be non-binary, particularly if you're happy 'presenting' as a woman (which you biologically are).

What material impact does this non-binary-ness have on your life?

If you're non-binary...
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RebelliousCow · 02/08/2023 13:39

WildUnchartedWaters · 02/08/2023 12:59

It isnt, but it is in a discussion where that term automatically has connotations.

I know you dont. But they do. So it's a total impasse. And who wins? You. You hold all the cards.

I actually think despite other posts that her post about making adjustments and compromises to the NB people she knows was fair. Thats a whole world awa from 'no'.

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If someone's identity requires that everyone affirms it, even against reality, then it is not a solid construction. A healthy sense of self is self sufficient and does not require continual validation. As mentioned before it is up to individual parties in any relationship to agree on terms and frames of reference - but beyond that the feelings of the individual are irrelevant.

WildUnchartedWaters · 02/08/2023 13:38

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2023 13:38

I dont believe they are attention seeking based on my knowledge and you do.

That's fine

Yes Smile

Fair enough. 🍷

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2023 13:38

They can be. Or not.

WildUnchartedWaters · 02/08/2023 13:38

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2023 13:28

You said anecdotes didnt make data and dismissed my views based on that.

So yes.

Well yes, I don't give your views, based on your experience, primacy over mine, based on my own. That wouldn't be particularly rational, would it.

No , but they can be considered equal in weight albeit opposing.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2023 13:38

I dont believe they are attention seeking based on my knowledge and you do.

That's fine

Yes Smile

WildUnchartedWaters · 02/08/2023 13:37

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2023 13:34

Why are you dismissing my experiences and beliefs and holding your experiences superior?

Because that's what people do. They trust their own perception. Rightly or wrongly. But you haven't managed to come up with any arguments which convince me that I'm wrong.

I dont need to though.

I dont believe they are attention seeking based on my knowledge and you do.

That's fine
What you cant do is claimed that my views are skewed by my lived experience and yours arent. I might not agree with you but I'm not dismissing your experience other than saying I think there are people who make everyone look bad. Ie the attention seekers. I'm not dismissing your own personal experience.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2023 13:36

Dont all of us judge from our lived experience?, is that not how the world works?

Well yes, that's why I trust mine rather than yours that I am getting second hand.

RebelliousCow · 02/08/2023 13:34

WildUnchartedWaters · 02/08/2023 13:01

I'm aware there are idiots everywhere. I judge the situatio on the people I know.

I know a lot of utterly batshit feminist idiots but I dont judge all feminists by that standard.

Dont all of us judge from our lived experience?, is that not how the world works?

There are attention seekers in all walks of life. My friend is not an anecdote, hes a person with lived experience. His feelings are no or less valid than anyone elses.

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I think this centering of the feelings of individuals is where the main divergence is arising. Society is not organised around people's feelings.

Plus, feelings are not always reliable; they come and go; chop and change. They are often not the best guide for action.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2023 13:34

Why are you dismissing my experiences and beliefs and holding your experiences superior?

Because that's what people do. They trust their own perception. Rightly or wrongly. But you haven't managed to come up with any arguments which convince me that I'm wrong.

Helleofabore · 02/08/2023 13:32

WildUnchartedWaters · 02/08/2023 13:29

I've already answered that question. No.
I believe they should, but I wouldnt shame anyone. Hope that fits to your standards.

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Great. So we agree? YAY!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2023 13:32

Because language is about power, and about who or what gets to determine reality or to name it. Queer Theory and other post modernist theories put language at the front and centre.

QT suggests that there is no reality apart from the reality of the individual and the meanings they create - so in challenging certain uses of language, and therfore meaning, they can revolutionise society.

Exactly this.

'But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice objected.
'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'
'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master — that's all.'

Helleofabore · 02/08/2023 13:31

RebelliousCow · 02/08/2023 13:24

'Should' carries the weight of a moral imperative.

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Thank you RebelliousCow.

WildUnchartedWaters · 02/08/2023 13:30

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2023 13:29

Your claimed experience based on your own perception I should say.

You mean exactly like yours is? And everyone on these boards?

Why are you dismissing my experiences and beliefs and holding your experiences superior?

Helleofabore · 02/08/2023 13:30

WildUnchartedWaters · 02/08/2023 13:28

Doesnt it.
But since it was @Helleofabore who said that, who can use them but nobody else can, your point is moot.

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WTAF?

RebelliousCow · 02/08/2023 13:29

WildUnchartedWaters · 02/08/2023 12:57

But Katherine is her legal name, that's a fact.
So why should I change my language?
I was being flippant about the change of language but who decides a reasonable expectation?

Pronouns might suggest sex to you, biologically and legally but the whole point of their gender identity is that they have chosen not to identify with their pronouns. I would have more sympathy with the bigger argument for women but I find the I'm not changing my language argument petty.

Show quote history

Because language is about power, and about who or what gets to determine reality or to name it. Queer Theory and other post modernist theories put language at the front and centre.

QT suggests that there is no reality apart from the reality of the individual and the meanings they create - so in challenging certain uses of language, and therfore meaning, they can revolutionise society.

WildUnchartedWaters · 02/08/2023 13:29

Helleofabore · 02/08/2023 13:29

So, do you think people SHOULD be shamed for not using people's chosen pronouns? Yes or no?

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I've already answered that question. No.
I believe they should, but I wouldnt shame anyone. Hope that fits to your standards.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2023 13:29

Your claimed experience based on your own perception I should say.

Helleofabore · 02/08/2023 13:29

WildUnchartedWaters · 02/08/2023 13:17

I dont think the majority of what you've written has shown respect.

I do try to read it but it's so rude and patronising it's difficult.

I'm aware that you think its wrong. For what it's worth I do too even though i might not agree with that action.

However, you're still completely unaware that what you have decreed is that if you think it, it's the case.

I've never made that assertion. I've not actually instructed anything. Ive got my belief on what people should do but I'm not their boss. you present your views as facts, not me.

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So, do you think people SHOULD be shamed for not using people's chosen pronouns? Yes or no?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2023 13:28

You said anecdotes didnt make data and dismissed my views based on that.

So yes.

Well yes, I don't give your views, based on your experience, primacy over mine, based on my own. That wouldn't be particularly rational, would it.

Justnot · 02/08/2023 13:28

NB etc

WildUnchartedWaters · 02/08/2023 13:28

RebelliousCow · 02/08/2023 13:24

'Should' carries the weight of a moral imperative.

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Doesnt it.
But since it was @Helleofabore who said that, who can use them but nobody else can, your point is moot.

Justnot · 02/08/2023 13:27

I did go down a bit of a rabbit hole on this previously, looking up on some charity sites for definition of these terms - NB, agender, gender fluid - and none of them could define any of the terms in anyway definitively, there weren’t a few choices, there were many. These terms mean all things to all people. And god forbid you would define a word and exclude someone.

it is therefore impossible to have a meaningful conversation about NB cos these words have so many meanings they mean nothing.

WildUnchartedWaters · 02/08/2023 13:27

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2023 13:25

I appreciate your anecdote comment but if you've decided that most of these people are attention seeking I'm not sure why I'm expected to provide data.

Did I ask you to provide data? It's my personal view, based on my own experience. It's not just a handful of idiots.

You said anecdotes didnt make data and dismissed my views based on that.

So yes.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2023 13:26

I'd prefer it didnt need one, personally. I appreciate that's optimistic.

Not optimistic, unrealistic.

WildUnchartedWaters · 02/08/2023 13:25

Helleofabore · 02/08/2023 13:23

Did you actually read my post? Did you notice where I am talking in general terms about how weak the concept is which is why people are saying to you that they find your explanations 'incoherent'?

Just because you believe that you have found a coherent description of non-binary from your discussions and readings, doesn't actually mean that you HAVE found a coherent description that you can then put into words for others. I and others who have similarly commented have not found your description coherent.

Should we not tell you this?

And again. Please indicate where I have 'spoken for all'? Please be specific.

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Okay hello.
You're right I'm wrong, you know everything, I know nothing. Well done.

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