If you're non-binary...

I think it's just, if you are growing up in an environment/social group that says that woman and man refer to feminity and masculinity rather than your biological sex, and you don't feel like you for either stereotype then there needs to be a word for it (or more than one: non-binary, agender, genderfluid, etc).

It's difficult to say, as gender critical feminists do that gender doesn't/shouldn't exist/isn't important, because members of your social group believe that it does and perhaps identify as trans or perform the stereotypes strongly. So you think you are an exception to not have a strong gender identity.

It's also that they lack the perspective of older folk that it is okay to just be gender non conforming and not have to justify it/make a big deal about it. School is a crucible of social pressure and Uni too is a lot about trying to find your tribe/discover who you are.

And there is the element of social status coming from not being boring/privileged.

I don't think it is a coincidence that this trend came hot on the heels of the trend of girls being hyperfeminine/sexualised/glam on Instagram culture. And is all in a context of childhood clothes and toys being extremely gendered in advertising. Everything was saying gender/sex was salient and important.

I think 'sexless' would be a better description as they seem to be referring to a binary which can only be the two sexes.

The definitions of non binary and agender / nongender seem to be work in progress. I'm agender for sure :- gender is a bunch of stereotypes that do not help my life, and fuck that.
I'm non binary too, then, because sure why not?

Bingo

I guess I meant if you had had genitals of the opposite sex to the one you were born with, that were created surgically for the purpose of transitioning.

What I was trying to get at was that non-binary seems quite a nebulous kind of 'I don't feel like I want to be put in a box' feeling, not connected to physical form. But nobody wants to be put in a box.

I've never understood why people can't accept the physical form they were born with and then behave however they want to behave, without having to claim a special status.

I’m GC, but I don’t think non-binary is a stretch from GC beliefs.

If I bought into gender ideologies, I would be NB as I think my gender/sex is irrelevant to most aspects of my life. I’m female presenting, but my personality traits and interests fall much closer to being masculine. I HATE being called “Mrs” or “Ms”, or “wife” (it makes me feel icky, as I don’t ‘identify’ with what those things mean, even though I am those things), but I feel indifferent about being called him/her/she/he. Now I think about it, I don’t love “woman” or “lady” either, but I’d be okay with “girl” or “guy” - even if it is a bit patronising.

But in my mind I can’t move past that regardless of the above I am objectively female and that can’t be changed. And I am indisputably a woman and a wife. The same way I’m 5’6”, even if I have heels on that make me seem taller… I am still the same height.

BTW I think the response to the original post is - feminine and obviously female girl who decided she's better than not like other girls wants to know how other girls in the same boat cope with feeling like a bit of a prat when they have to declare their specialness because no-one has noticed it, what with them looking exactly like the thing they're pretending not to be.

In general, I take it to mean 'doesn't have enough to do and so is filling the time talking about themselves online'

I'm a bit puzzled as to why you posted your question here, in the section of Talk that was specifically set up to silo off feminists, if you specifically don't want their opinions?

This really interests me - what surgery could you have that would make you not fit the biological definition of your sex?

I've had my reproductive system removed. All of it.

Am I now no longer female?

And if not female, then what? The two remaining options are male or sexless and I don't fit the definition of either of those.

It's just a label. Lots of people like to label themselves and others. The world seems a neater place if everyone has a box into which they can be tidied. And if you don't like the look of box A or box B, then call yourself C and dive into box C.

I'm quite femme I guess. But I wear very little make up, never wear heels, pink looks ghastly on me, I did a high powered degree in the days when ambitious girls were still being told to do a secretarial course (the less ambitious ones were pointed towards child care). Am I NB? Am I f**k. I'm a woman, but most importantly of all, I'm happy (enough) being me.

Non binary is obviously gender critical.

Non binary is not a gender because, as we are so often educated told, gender isn't binary.

It's simply a rejection of sex based stereotypes.

There’s confusion over sex and gender with it. I’ve seen definitions where it says you don’t identify as male or female which would explain some of them having breasts removed I guess? But then for most it seems just a rejection of the stereotypes and expectations- the most common non-binary female I see it one with short hair and no make up, why that needs a special identity I don’t know and why you’d want to keep women as some stereotype I also don’t get.

When I was in school my sisters year had the cutters, and mine had the goths.

From the teens I've seen there seems to be the cohort that are attention seeking and then the ones who use their 'identity' as a mask to hide behind. A form of misguided self preservation which unfortunately is leading to self harm.

I thought I understood non binary and for the girls I have met through my own children who are now non binary it could even be empowering. A big fuck off. Then the pink haired surgeon started talking about the non binary surgeries and now just as confused. If opting out of the stereotypes then no change is really required

Yeh, and people have been rocking the pink/blue/green/red/purple/ hair for many decades. I used to have lilac hair - and wear lots of black.

In my day it was wearing a slipknot or Marilyn Manson hoody vs a limp biscuit style baseball cap and baggy jeans.

There aren't any obvious youth subcultures anymore; the sort that used to revolve around music, clothing, hairstyles, make-up and generally being non-conformist ( punk/emo/goth) - so now we have 'non-binary'.

Also young people seem to be taking far longer to grow up - and are streching their years of youthful exploration out ad infinitum.

'Non binary' is just a pose - a way of saying " Look at me" I'm special.

The main thing I took from the reddit discussion I read was that the non binary people feel they don't fit in with the cultural idea of what a man/woman is. So, seemingly powerless to change anything, they identify out of the binary.

Maybe that's why when people grow up a bit they realise they have the ability to do what they like and find other people who accept them despite being a bit gender non-conforming. It all feels very teenage to me - I'm not blokey enough for my mates so I must be non binary etc

My understanding is non binary is when you don't conform to masculine or feminine stereotypes and don't want to be constrained by the boxes. I always think it's just a step away from being gender critical if I'm honest.

Non-binary sex I could just about get if you're intersex or have had some surgery or some other condition that means you don't fit biological definitions of male or female.

Non-binary gender seems to always imply a behavioural binary that isn't there. We're all a mix of feminine and masculine (if you take those as qualities of softness vs assertiveness etc). There might be some behaviours or stereotypes of what it means to be a man or a woman, feminism was about breaking those down and the gender woo stuff seems to be about reinforcing them so a small minority can claim to be superior.

In short - I'm a woman, that doesn't limit what it is possible for me to be in the world, non-binary status seems to suggest I'm hiding in a box that will limit my potential.

Those reddit threads make me extremely grateful for mumsnet's clarity and logic.

If your gender is truly irrelevant it shouldn't matter whether you dress feminine or not. It certainly doesn't to me.

Immediate fail. That should be with y'all.

Fabulous question that never really seems to be asked. Like we are supposed to know as if by magic what it actually means to that individual.