If you're non-binary...

Of course we are, Bez.

@BigTedLittleTedCardboardBox

Thought provoking, thanks. I agree fully that NB is a personal rather than political act.

To me it raises one important question to ask any NB person. Are we all NB and just need to realise it (political enbyism) or is it a personal thing which marks you as unusual and special ( personal enbyism).

I am the former. Gender is a crock and nobody is a stereotype. We are all enby.

This bit resonated with me -

"...but get on with leading a happy and useful life - and maybe stop thinking about yourself such a lot and find something kind and productive to do."

Because the whole thing is so steeped in self obsessive navel gazing. The experiences I've had with those who declare themselves 'non binary' is that they are desperately looking for something to mark themselves out as unique and special. But instead of doing something - following a passion, getting really expert in an interesting subject, getting really into a genre of music or film or books, volunteering etc etc - all their focus is on making someone else dance to their tune.

From my observations both gender critical and non-binary perspectives stem from a dissatisfaction with the way sex stereotypes (aka gender) are promoted and perpetuated in our societies. The GC angle seeks to analyse and change the structural factors that lead to this, whereas the NB perspective seems to be an individualised response to opt out of it.

The acceptance of the existence, applicability and enforcement of sex stereotypes for other people seems to be part of NB thinking - thus they can opt out. The very act of opting out in this way reinforces the relevance of sex stereotypes for others who haven't 'opted out'. This individualided, some might say narcissistic, solution therefore sees the problem but doesn't GAF about the impact of it on anyone but themselves.

I've heard the argument that it's pragmatic; a reasonable way to deal with a problem where changing the system is deemed unrealistic, and that if enough people become NB it will tip the balance. I don't buy it. Being NB comes with its own stereotypes for a start. And women as a class are oppressed because of their biology.

Feminine sex stereotype enforcement is one way to oppress women (just as masculine sex stereotype enforcement elevates men), but it's not the only way. There are structural and cultural issues at play too, which NB does not address. An example is the status/renumeration of care giving roles vs the historically male dominated professions.

There's also the issue of denial of material reality, and the slippery slopes that leads to.

In summary, NB ideology throws others under the bus.

I know 3 women who fairly recently switched to she/they pronouns. They are all quite different - a mid-fifties senior manager married with adult kids, a 30-something gender non-conforming bisexual etc. I genuinely don't know their reasoning (and I'm afraid asking will lead to an uncomfortable conversation I'm not yet ready to have with any of them).

They are generally independent women, not the type to want to be with the in-crowd. None have changed their appearance at all. Everyone still uses 'she' pronouns for them and treats them exactly the same. Perhaps its the soft-launch of something more drastic?

Thanks for your kind offer. I was addressing the OP’s query, the OP being the one who wants feedback.

Totally agree - it's the same as gender critical but for people who've swallowed the party line on "man" and "woman" referring to gender rather than sex.

I am not binary. (Is anyone binary?)
But I don't know if that's the same as non-binary.

I have got to the point where all this just exasperates me.

I have a now adult GC who "identifies" as non-binary - I respect her/his/their wishes as regards pronouns and love them to bits - and tell them so all the time.

But all I can see is that they are bloody unhappy/confused/miserable and I am sorely tempted to say "Look, dress how you will, behave as you will (whether it conforms to gender stereotypes or not), but get on with leading a happy and useful life - and maybe stop thinking about yourself such a lot and find something kind and productive to do."

There - I've said it - I've been bottling that up for a long time!

I am a widowed grandmother and live alone now (although lots of contact with family and friends) and I just think that life is too darned short to be pissing about with all this stuff when there are hills to climb, views to see, dances to dance, games to play, fun to have before it is too late.

I am Observed Male At Birth Agender Non Binary (OMABANB) but you can call me Captain Spicy for short.

When I hear 'non binary' I just think of people who want to be in the 'in crowd' and thought a bit unique - as if nobody before has ever developed some individualistic character. The crazy thing is that we now see people well out of their teenage years adopting such labels.

I was at the opening of a refurbished gallery yesterday, and there was a bloke - well over 6ft, with a blue beard, a purple knee length skirt, taking what looked like official photos for the press release. I discovered today he is caled Phil, he is autistic and he " is non binary", using they/them pronouns.

He must have been in his early 30's. Of for goodness sake! I've no issue with the blue beard and the skirt - as for the public pronouncements and identity declarations - no thanks, and so what. It just seems so juvenile.

I think non-binary people fall into two camps

Woah, @fourlegsandatail! Are you saying that non-binary people are ... binary?!

Agree with others that non-binary is just gender critical, hideously distorted into its opposite.

I try just to hear tomboy when people say non-binary. I was a tomboy as a child. Loved that there was that space. Loved that no-one gave a toss about it.

Non-binary sex is still as ridiculous. Intersex people are still either male or female according to their chromosomes. Sex is binary.

An old acquaintance (in her 40s) has just 'come out' as non binary and I do not want to be rude and ask her why (she is still using female pronouns before anyone has a go).

Surely if you’re non binary you accept people using any and pronouns for you? Isn’t that the point?

OP I think it’s pointless to try and get your head round it tbh as there is so much confusion even within that community. I saw something on Instagram where someone non binary had top surgery…. So trans then, not non-binary? If you were NB you’d see yourself as both/all genders and therefore be fine with your boobs?

You can ask me anything you like, DadJoke.

I am. AFAB non-binary.

Maybe because they can’t articulate their belief system without resorting to sexist stereotypes?

Have you considered asking AFAB non-binary people themselves, or reading what they have to say rather than on a GC forum? Don't lead with "biologically you are a woman."

But then if you can be either biologically female or biologically male and identify as non-binary, are they the same non-binary? Is it a single category?

Same. I can see the logic of wanting to opt out of sexism.

This is a test?! I haven't revised!

For myself it came out of being told both that being female made you worth a lot less than men and that I was terrible at it. I also experienced a lot of abuse that left me very disconnected from my body

I may have (but I was incredibly cynical of ‘trends’ and fashions) because I had a very glam mum and sisters (very feminine and beautiful) and then there was me and my tomboy sister. I didn’t feel like any of them.

I don't identify as non binary. But I think I might have done if I was at school today without the perspective I have on sexism and gender as an adult. I grew up in the girl power era where the idea was that all the important sexist injustices had been resolved hollow laugh