If you're non-binary...

I'm wondering if NB is a kind of ontological 'third space' in the gender world.

I respect people's human right to believe any old nonsense they like. I don't have to respect their belief itself.

Third spaces and categories resepct people's private beliefs without impinging on others.

We can accept that some people believe in something and respect their right to that, without having to believe it, or adopt any of its catechisms, ourselves.

Which is why, on a practical level, third spaces, services and categories are the way forward. If you are a Christian you have a church you can pray in; a Muslim, a mosque; a Hindu - a domestic shrine. But nobody has the right, in our society, to force others to adopt any particular religion.

To be "binary" you have to be on one end or another of Mermaids' Barbie to Action Man "gender spectrum. And no one is.

I'm leaning into that view myself, @Ereshkigalangcleg

"That's a catch 22. I personally dont believe that changing your appearance to not 'appear'masculine or feminine (I await the 32 posts about what does that mean, because I'm not NB) makes a difference, but some people do. And they're entitled to that view. They're entitled to present and dress how they want and use they as a pronoun."

So....

"I personally dont believe that changing your appearance to not 'appear'masculine or feminine (I await the 32 posts about what does that mean, because I'm not NB) makes a difference, but some people do."

You, like most people on this board, believe that people can present however the fuck they want. In fact, many of us would fight with those people for that right.

"And they're entitled to that view."

And you and most people on this board agree that they can believe what they wish about themselves... Has anyone said anything differently, or have you read that posters disagreeing with what those people believe as being that poster removing that person's right to belief??

"They're entitled to present and dress how they want and use they as a pronoun."

Right. But they have no entitlement to expect any person to validate their beliefs about themselves. They have no entitlement to expect anyone else to 'respect their choice of pronoun' as a right.

"I'm agnostic. I dont spend my time telling people they cant possibly be a Christian because god doesnt exist. I just respect their right to have their views. You know, like most decent humans do."

And this is a false comparison.

Are Christians in the UK demanding that they have any rights other than those currently in the law? And are any Christians demanding that society changes language to suit them?

You then sweep in with yet another emotionally manipulative appeal about 'decent humans'. So, here I and I am sure others on this thread read this and go... yeah? so? That describes us too. We are decent humans and we "I dont spend my time telling people they cant possibly be a Christian because god doesnt exist. I just respect their right to have their views."

"I read a lot on here ahout how people would refuse to use they but I'd be interested to know if these people do it in real life to actual people or just tell them all about how they think their views are wrong etc etc."

Do you honestly believe that people are out there telling people that they think their views are wrong if it has nothing at all to do with a discussion they are having.?

OR

Are you telling us that if directly asked by someone, that you believe that people should lie and obfuscate when asked a direct question if we think that the person holds a different view?

I am trying to understand what it is you are saying, but it does seem to be that your posts are coming from your own prejudiced views about posters on this board than perhaps a deeper understanding of what people believe or not.

Good news, everyone who has ever lived is "non binary".

I once saw an interesting documentary following a group of young Amish people, doing a kind of gap year to see what the outside world was like before returning to their communities. The programme makers were obviously hopeful of some good telly moments of their being outraged by various Western decadence, but like many Americans they had exquisite manners. My favourite bit was when they were shown some particularly cringe street dancing. A young woman responded with devastating politeness, "but what's it for?"

I was minded of this with the fundamental question of "what is the point/aim of NB" remaining unanswered.

Their gender

Personality then.

I also feel that while women undoubtedly have more risks and all the difficult conversations that come with trans, physically, men suffer far more in the gender topic.

In what sense?

Their gender

That would involve all working together. Wont happen in our lifetime.

non binary is just that. Not male, not female.

You do know they have a sex though? What's "non binary" about them exactly?

Being 'transphobic' is only a thing, though, if you accept the construct of 'being trans'; in the first instance. Personally, I see 'being trans' as a framing device: a way of constructing the self using a certain set of precepts.

You can be anything you want in the privacy of your own mind - but when you become involved in social relationships you have to negotiate a deeper and more consensual reality.

How do you personally explain detransitioners? The growing number of people who have been led to frame their struggles in such a way. and then have woken up and realised it was just another form of self harm, or an ultimately hopeless way of dealing with their human struggles?

I understand that, both parts really.

I'm not saying I'm a champion for NB. I'm explaining what it means. And that's what it means. People can disagree if they like and thats their right but you cant erase other peoples rights.

I personally find it sad that a woman would feel the need to be NB because she doesnt feel she conforms. I do.
But I've recognised that simply just telling people they just cant and that's it is entirely unhelpful.

I also feel that while women undoubtedly have more risks and all the difficult conversations that come with trans, physically, men suffer far more in the gender topic.

Looking forward to the day when we look back on all this and… laugh (maybe).
If people are just articulating that gender ‘norms’ are bs then Good.
Can we redesign society please so this is no longer relevant?

No I mean what I said.

I didnt ask you to agree with it. I said that's how they identify.

I will when you ask a direct question. Asking me the point of something you clearly disagree with is a waste of absolutely everybody's time.

So what on EARTH are you doing here?

non binary is just that. Not male, not female.

Everybody is male or female. They may not want to be. They may not like it. But they are.

Sorry if you find reality boring. Reality doesn't care.

Perhaps you mean 'masculine' and 'feminine' rather than 'male ' and 'female'. But that just brings us back to stereotypes.

Personally, I will not perform 'double think' maneouvres on myself, though.

Me neither. Been there, done that, never again.

How can you claim to be neither male nor female. That makes no sense at all.

I'm (Politically) Non Binary... for now. I don't have fussy pronouns because I don't want them nor do I seem to need them.

The sex of my body was defined at conception and observed at birth, it's not going to change, no matter what kind of identitation I get up to.

How people refer to each other in personal and intimate situations is a matter for negotiation between the two parties. It deends on the person, the nature and quality of the relationship, and the context.

Personally, I will not perform 'double think' maneouvres on myself, though.

And they're entitled to that view. They're entitled to present and dress how they want and use they as a pronoun.

They are. They're just not entitled to make everyone validate them in their personal identity.

I have asked you this direct question three times now. Very directly.

Can you please describe the point/aim of NB.

Thanks.