If you're non-binary...

@Greenwitchhorse of course the concept harms children. Note 'the concept' not 'the person'. Reinforcing sterotypes is harmful. Denying reality is harmful. Obfuscating science is harmful. Encouraging self-obsession is harmful.

And that's before you get to the fact that some surgeons offer 'non-binary' surgeries and some doctors suggest puberty blockers or cross-sex hormones. That is - I think, and hope - rare, but even 1 case is too many.

And I was obviously referring to pronouns when I said pronouns - and that is an imposition on me of additional cognitive load. But the rest of the sentence is not just about pronouns. It's about things like campaigns for additional non-binary categories in sports, or for non-binary people to play in the sex category of their choice. It's about demands for non-binary options in the 'sex' field of official documents. Small demands and large ones that disadvantage women either directly or indirectly, take up legislative and administrative time that could be spent on something important, and generally clog up society.

It simply means someone does not feel like they should conform to traditional binary beliefs about gender (ie that all individuals are exclusively either male or female)
You are conflating sex - real and immutable - and gender - made up stereotypes with no basis in reality.

No one has to acknowledge and accept the gender stereotypes, but those who claim to be nonbinary are enhancing them by then trying to opt out of them.

I will repeat that someone deciding to use they/them as pronouns, I assume that is what you are referring to, has zero negative effect on your life It's compelled thought and speech, and it has a massive impact on others' lives.

It is also bizarre that you think that the simple fact that someone considers themselves non-binary would ''harm children''
Not only does reinforcing stereotypes do no favours for anyone, but the lie that "I don't feel female/male" is not a message to be shared with children, let alone adults.

Don't want to adhere to gender gubbins? Fine, you don't have to. Does that mean you can ignore the reality of your (in this case) female sexed body? Not a chance. That and everything that goes with it will be yours until your last breath. Far better to work at dismantling the ridiculous gender woo that's had negative impacts on women for far too long.

'@BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn
it has no impact on your life whatsoever

That's the thing, though, isn't it? If it actually has no impact on my life then (largely, see below) I don't care -people can of course dress how they like and call themselves anything they want. I'll probably roll my eyes, but I do that at a lot of people for all sorts of reasons. But they don't get to make demands on me because of it. If they want special treatment, special pronouns, special laws - these do affect me.

And regardless of the impact on me, I care if it harms children. Physical harm from the nonsense of medical and surgical 'treatments' to somehow 'align with' a non-binary identity. Psychological harm from damaging their understanding of the world, of reality, of their place in that. There's no reason why 'feeling non-binary should cause these harms, but increasingly it does seem to do so.'

You are showing what is really bothering you here...

Someone describing themselves as non-binary does not equate to them being trans or planning to transition.

It simply means someone does not feel like they should conform to traditional binary beliefs about gender (ie that all individuals are exclusively either male or female).

I will repeat that someone deciding to use they/them as pronouns, I assume that is what you are referring to, has zero negative effect on your life. Just like someone being gay has zero impact on your life.

You cannot police how people want to present and define themselves.

It is also bizarre that you think that the simple fact that someone considers themselves non-binary would ''harm children''.

It is simply about learning to respect other people and their difference. It saddens me when I read this type of nonsense.

It is literally the type of ignorant arguments that used to be thrown at gay people a couple of decades ago (potential harm to children) and now it seems the same ignorance is happily being applied to other minority groups.

For goodness sake! I am really sorry that happened.

It's already happened with transwomen. For raising concerns about safety and fairness I was kicked out and branded a bigot.

@Truthlikeness that's a bloody travesty.

I play a team contact sport where teams and competitions are increasingly being labeled for 'women and non-binary people'. That means I could end up facing biological males. In a contact sport. That's why it matters to me.

Agree with all of that @ApocalipstickNow

And, do you not think, it would make more sense, for our collective, societal response to be to people who feel this way, to be, 'We need to get more comfortable with expanding what we understand to be "male and female qualities"' rather than, as you're advocating, 'oooh yeah you're right, you don't fit. Better make up a new category!'

And this is the absolute heart of it for me. Because when someone says they’re non-binary it usually means “I have different interests to others of my sex” which is surely an argument for degendering interests rather than people.

And a man with a non-binary identity has no more right to demand inclusion in Women only spaces (things that are to promote take up by women like sports/gym sessions but end up excluding women or places where you may be undressed eg changing rooms, hospital examinations etc) than any other man.

And a woman who feels a double mastectomy whilst healthy because of her NB status, doesn’t that need exploring a bit further? How is surgery accepted as the right thing so quickly? Without digging deeper into the reasons a woman may hate her breasts? (A not uncommon feeling for many women for many reasons- usually to do with sexism?)

if people want to label themselves non-binary, good on them.

Absolutely. You don't mind if I ignore their label and just go by their sex though, I guess? It doesn't have any effect on anyone else what I do!

There are a lot of neologisms about that make me feel like an out of touch old fogey. I've tried to get to the meaning of agender, non-gender, non-binary and there is no single widely-accepted definition for any of it. So I take your point that they are basically, meaningless.

I seem to have managed my entire life to very recently without needing or knowing any of this stuff. I think I'd probably have managed to see myself out without it too (is that just my blah privilege showing).

And as you suggest 'non binary' is utterly meaningless. Things only have meaning if their meaning is commonly understood.

Furthermore, we all make judgements all of the time. Acts of judgement or discrimination are not inherently negative. We quite naturally discriminate and judge on all matter of issues every single hour of the day. Functionality, organisation and ordering are all dependent upon being able to tell the difference between one thing and another.

Just feeling the need to label/re-label oneself is indicative of the fact that we are social creatures. If we lived in isolation, and our behaviour had no impact upon anyone else, than there would be no need for identity labels.

Identitry labels are there to tell other people how you see yourself, and have the implicit intention that other people alter their behaviour and/or attitude on account of your self proclaimed identity.

Gender markers are implicity social because gender is a social construct.

For starters.........

I am trying to think of where it would not have an impact on anyone else. Can you please explain how this will not impact any person interacting with that non-binary person throughout the day? For instance, if they are expected to use preferred pronouns, indeed if their job role or their membership of a group is dependent on them using those pronouns that has significant impact on their life.

And if that non-binary person who is of one sex wishes to use the single sex spaces of the opposite sex, that also has significant impact.

Could you clarify why, in your view, someone who has to make changes to accommodate the demands of a non-binary person is not being impacted? Or do you believe that everyone should just accept the demands of every other person and accommodate them as being the norm?

It has a massive impact on everyone's life not least because when people feel the need to declare themselves as effectively ordinary, it gives young and otherwise vulnerable people the impression that it's actually normal to be hugely aligned with culturally specific old fashioned stereotypes. It leads to surgery for some people. It leads to an increase in female oppression because it entrenches the stereotypes actually feminists have been trying to dismantle for more than a century.

@BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn

I feel quite similar. I'm apparently struggling for the words this morning, I think there's one word for my take pragmaticist? heuristic? oh god I'm having a bad brian week, I really am.
Insofar as having an NB (I will NOT be typing enby, ever, damn!) identity helps you feel ok about not fitting into sex stereotypes and all that, good.
Anyone proposing that surgery to align your body with your NB Identity, is insane, and should be kept away from children.
In short, if it helps your mental health, great! If it encourages bodily self-harm, TERRIBLE.

it has no impact on your life whatsoever

That's the thing, though, isn't it? If it actually has no impact on my life then (largely, see below) I don't care -people can of course dress how they like and call themselves anything they want. I'll probably roll my eyes, but I do that at a lot of people for all sorts of reasons. But they don't get to make demands on me because of it. If they want special treatment, special pronouns, special laws - these do affect me.

And regardless of the impact on me, I care if it harms children. Physical harm from the nonsense of medical and surgical 'treatments' to somehow 'align with' a non-binary identity. Psychological harm from damaging their understanding of the world, of reality, of their place in that. There's no reason why 'feeling non-binary should cause these harms, but increasingly it does seem to do so.

Why does it matter to me? Well there's a new thing around (everybody that is currently NB lived most of their life without knowing that NB is a thing, right?).
I've decided, no I've realised I'm NB too.
It's not like sea swimming, at least for me (how do you know someone swims in the sea? Oh they'll tell you soon enough), I don't go on about it in real life at all. Here on the interwebs, I found a thread about this very topic, and I feel it's a safe space for me to come out of the NB closet and discuss my feelings about that.

The question would be why does it matter to you?

if people want to label themselves non-binary, good on them.

Life would be so much easier if people just kept needing to judge others in this way and be passive-aggressive about ''genuinely wanting to understand''...Just accept them as they are. They don't need to justify themselves to you.

''Non-binary'' also probably means different things to different individuals.

Some people will use the term because they feel they don't conform to stereotypes/can't relate to what society associates with being a man or a woman.

Or they want to present as androgyne, or they feel they have both male and females qualities and can't quite fit in one ''category''.

Whatever it is, it has no impact on your life whatsoever and if that makes them happy and comfortable in themselves then so be it.

Praise the lord! I'm free!

Nayeah, joking aside, I managed to get there already. I'm happy enough doing my thing. If I occasionally get homophobic abuse for wearing a pink hoodie or doing ballet, I just laugh it off because... really?

There isn't a blokey test. That's the point.

Male doesn't equal masculine.

I'm Observed Male At Birth and don't like football, don't like cars, been known to cry at a sad bit in a film, my DIY and car-fixing skills are very low, and I don't even care if I have the tongs at a barbie. If there was a Blokey Test, I'd probably scrape the GCSE by rote-learning but my teacher would not recommend me for the A-level.

I’m a woman but I’m not super girly. I’ve never had my nails, eyelashes or eyebrows done. Some days I wear makeup, other times I can’t be bothered (apart from my eyebrows). I have long hair and wear skirts and dresses but also spend most weekends in jeans and a hoody. Am I womaning all wrong?

Life is exhausting enough without giving myself a label and changing my pronouns. I think I’ll just keep being me. 100% female just doing it my way. Isn’t that what most of us are doing anyway?