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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Now that some *men* are commenting, it's all changing over on Twitter...

138 replies

Qbishy · 29/07/2023 14:14

So Andrew Neil is tweeting about a detransitioner today, Richard Dawkins wrote that piece in the NS that has been shared and commented widely, and Wes Streeting has (kind of) apologised to Rosie Duffield.

It seems like now some men are getting in on the act, people are paying attention 🙄 I'm not criticising them, but honestly, WHERE HAVE THEY BEEN ALL THIS TIME???

Suzanne Moore is, understandably, furious now that Labour has (supposedly) changed its tune, having been terfed out (see what I did there) of the Guardian by Kath Viner. Helen Lewis equally fed up. As are many more women.

It's lovely that men are finally taking notice. But so incredibly frustrating that women's voices just don't count.

(One person on X posited that the tide turned when Elon Musk took it over and allowed wrongthink to be published... that could be the case, too.)

OP posts:
Yusay · 29/07/2023 17:08

I think there have been a few tipping points. The first was JK Rowling’s tweet about not being a ‘menstruator’. Maya Forth’s successful appeal was another, and arguably the most significant.

Elon Musk allowing gender critical tweets was also key. Previously anyone who contradicted transactivists on Twitter got deleted and ‘cancelled’.

And although I hate to admit it, Boris Johnson raised awareness a lot when he tentatively said that he didn’t think it was fair for women in sports to have to compete with men. He only said that to try to save his career by undermining Labour etc, but it did help in making it ok to ‘say the unsayable’.

And at some point the Daily Mail, who I have never otherwise read, started doing some bizarrely fantastic journalism on it. After that it was just a matter of time.

The house of cards was always going to fall down though. Authoritarian delusions always fail eventually because, to misquote Mr T: “You mess with reality? You gonna lose, sucka!”

ArabeIIaScott · 29/07/2023 17:00

IamSTARVING · 29/07/2023 16:16

I can even understand why - many saw it as a 'woman's issue' and were wary of getting involved.

That is not true though - it has been mainly men giving away womens things - legal status, public spaces, jobs, sports, scolarships, language, and so on.

Men did that.

So it is therefore a man issue not a woman issue.

We were attacked - we had to fight back. Russia/Ukraine type of thing.

Some men have been actively involved in removing women's rights, yes.

Some other men have been unwilling to get involved in what they see as an issue that doesn't concern them, that is 'a bunch of feminists fighting amongst themselves', etc.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 29/07/2023 16:39

(One person on X posited that the tide turned when Elon Musk took it over and allowed wrongthink to be published... that could be the case, too.)

I think it is this. Journos and politicians pay a lot of attention to Twitter. I don't think they realised to what degree the biased moderation made the TRA view seem the mainstream view. Now that's stopped happening they are realising how far the frog has been boiled.

IamSTARVING · 29/07/2023 16:16

ArabeIIaScott · 29/07/2023 14:56

The pushback has largely been from women.

The costs to reputation, health, career, have largely been to women.

I know many men took longer to see this - with a few honourable exceptions.

I can even understand why - many saw it as a 'woman's issue' and were wary of getting involved.

But it's unavoidable to note if you've been following it that the most vituperative attacks, threats and insults have been aimed at women.

Genderism is misogynist by nature and to its core.

I can even understand why - many saw it as a 'woman's issue' and were wary of getting involved.

That is not true though - it has been mainly men giving away womens things - legal status, public spaces, jobs, sports, scolarships, language, and so on.

Men did that.

So it is therefore a man issue not a woman issue.

We were attacked - we had to fight back. Russia/Ukraine type of thing.

IamSTARVING · 29/07/2023 16:09

Toseland · 29/07/2023 14:44

I'm glad more men are speaking up, good men should be standing up for their wives, children, mothers and all women.

Good men should be standing up for a fair society.

If it is for their wives, children etc it contiues the self interest idea, you know?

A bit idealistic I know!

risefromyourgrave · 29/07/2023 16:04

donquixotedelamancha · 29/07/2023 15:40

I don't think he's the wrong type of man. I think he just weighed in when there was absolutely no cover and the Genderists were merciless.

It's not like they've stopped trying to intimidate people but it's spread around now and there are too many people they can't intimidate. Streeting, Neil or Dawkins getting a visit from the police would be front page news.

I wish Glinner had given in and recanted. Watching the toll it's taken on him over the years is immensely sad. His career will never recover and his showbiz mates that now change their tune will never acknowledge that he was right all along.

I think, and hope, that Glinner has now amassed an army of loyal fans who will always stick by him. I for one think he’s great and will watch, listen and read anything he does now and in the future.
And PLEASE let Ted:The Musical go ahead. I would fork out for front row tickets for that beauty!

KohlaParasaurus · 29/07/2023 15:42

It's a frustrating reality that women need men on our side in a matter so fundamental to our rights. But anyone who says, "Where have the feminists been? Why didn't they speak up?" must have been living on Mars for the past decade.

RealityFan · 29/07/2023 15:42

MrsOvertonsWindow · 29/07/2023 15:32

I think that Neil, like countless men, has until now dismissed this as part of the culture wars. I suspect that there's been some back room polling / information about the sheer numbers of parents (& responsible adults) looking in horror at what's happening in schools, to detransitioners, the Cass revelations etc.
Although, how he ignored the wonderful James Kirkup's exposes I will never understand.

The very definition of light touch management or absentee landlord. I mean, to not read your own journal, or to read it and not be troubles? Until now?

donquixotedelamancha · 29/07/2023 15:40

BeBraveLittlePenguin · 29/07/2023 14:40

If I were Glinner I would be spitting. Wrong type of man, obviously.

I don't think he's the wrong type of man. I think he just weighed in when there was absolutely no cover and the Genderists were merciless.

It's not like they've stopped trying to intimidate people but it's spread around now and there are too many people they can't intimidate. Streeting, Neil or Dawkins getting a visit from the police would be front page news.

I wish Glinner had given in and recanted. Watching the toll it's taken on him over the years is immensely sad. His career will never recover and his showbiz mates that now change their tune will never acknowledge that he was right all along.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 29/07/2023 15:32

I think that Neil, like countless men, has until now dismissed this as part of the culture wars. I suspect that there's been some back room polling / information about the sheer numbers of parents (& responsible adults) looking in horror at what's happening in schools, to detransitioners, the Cass revelations etc.
Although, how he ignored the wonderful James Kirkup's exposes I will never understand.

SlowlyLosing · 29/07/2023 15:30

I think more men are getting involved because it's shifting. They were afraid before. Same with some women too. It's understandable.

We just need more people on board, they're on their way.

SunnyEgg · 29/07/2023 15:27

I’m definitely not up for criticism from anyone saying we didn’t speak up enough

Fuck that!

I wasn’t one of the first to get onto it but there’s been loads on this site alone who have faced abuse and silencing tactics

Those are the people who can jump. Not the later comers, if people are slow to it fine. I’ll take all the voices offered.

RealityFan · 29/07/2023 15:22

If he genuinely has only seen the detrans thing for the first time, he's a disgrace to journalism.

If he's seen it before, and is feigning his suprise, he's a disgrace to journalism.

If he's seen it before, abs has been to fearful to speak up before he sees the arrow of progress arcing our way, he's a...yes, you guessed it.

CorruptedCauldron · 29/07/2023 15:22

I want to see JK Rowling wholly vindicated. She never said anything extreme, she only every voiced legitimate concerns. Her only crime was to care about women and children! I’m hoping the floodgates are opening now, what with all the latest from Andrew Neil, Wes Streeting and Richard Dawkins. If more and more people raise their heads above the parapet, it can only be a good thing.

HarrietJet · 29/07/2023 15:21

DworkinWasRight · 29/07/2023 15:11

I think the people who were on to this early - mostly women, but also people like Glinner - won’t get any credit. The people who will claim the credit will be those who arrived late, but think they were the first to notice. Then they’ll tell off feminists for having failed to do anything about it.

Depressing, but probably true.

TimeLady · 29/07/2023 15:15

Rudderneck · 29/07/2023 14:53

It's totally the point, you said women were talking, and men were not.

Actually, there were men talking and saying things. And lots of women TRAs.

We are not seeing more people, male and female, who are taking notice or speaking up.

Did you miss Glinner, Piers Morgan, Dawkins, Jordan Peterson, Simon Callow, among others? Or the many female TRAs who don't listen just like the male TRAs?

James Kirkup has been writing about these issues, specifically in Andrew Neil's own publication:

With the support of Fraser Nelson, editor of The Spectator, Kirkup has produced since February (2018) a large volume of studiously even-handed work on this topic, and has gained for that magazine a number of left-wing feminist subscribers.

Interview: James Kirkup on trans. And how campaigners have exploited MPs' fear of being accused of transphobia. | Conservative Home

I don't know which rock Neil has been hiding under, but I'm disappointed in him today.

SunnyEgg · 29/07/2023 15:13

Rudderneck · 29/07/2023 14:53

It's totally the point, you said women were talking, and men were not.

Actually, there were men talking and saying things. And lots of women TRAs.

We are not seeing more people, male and female, who are taking notice or speaking up.

Did you miss Glinner, Piers Morgan, Dawkins, Jordan Peterson, Simon Callow, among others? Or the many female TRAs who don't listen just like the male TRAs?

I agree there were rafts of people at each stage, women have pushed it but some men too

Plenty of female TRAs, no shortage of posters on here telling women to stfu and vote against their rights, that no one cared or was even listening to us speak. That annoys me more tbh

DworkinWasRight · 29/07/2023 15:11

I think the people who were on to this early - mostly women, but also people like Glinner - won’t get any credit. The people who will claim the credit will be those who arrived late, but think they were the first to notice. Then they’ll tell off feminists for having failed to do anything about it.

mumda · 29/07/2023 15:10

Every little helps.

I'll know it's all sorted when a friend stops crocheting packers.

HarrietJet · 29/07/2023 15:07

BeBraveLittlePenguin · 29/07/2023 14:40

If I were Glinner I would be spitting. Wrong type of man, obviously.

Sorry, I meant to quote this 🤦🏼‍♀️

HarrietJet · 29/07/2023 15:07

Toseland · 29/07/2023 14:44

I'm glad more men are speaking up, good men should be standing up for their wives, children, mothers and all women.

Hopefully he'll be acknowledged and vindicated properly, eventually. It's been a long time coming.

Florissante · 29/07/2023 15:01

BeBraveLittlePenguin · 29/07/2023 14:40

If I were Glinner I would be spitting. Wrong type of man, obviously.

Good point.

RealityFan · 29/07/2023 14:58

I got a little stalked on Twitter after a bunch of TRA home boys caught my GC chat and felt they needed to pull my thoughts apart between them.

Felt like I'd made my little mark as a male in this battle of ideas...well, half cocked feverdream from the TRAs.

ArabeIIaScott · 29/07/2023 14:56

Rudderneck · 29/07/2023 14:53

It's totally the point, you said women were talking, and men were not.

Actually, there were men talking and saying things. And lots of women TRAs.

We are not seeing more people, male and female, who are taking notice or speaking up.

Did you miss Glinner, Piers Morgan, Dawkins, Jordan Peterson, Simon Callow, among others? Or the many female TRAs who don't listen just like the male TRAs?

The pushback has largely been from women.

The costs to reputation, health, career, have largely been to women.

I know many men took longer to see this - with a few honourable exceptions.

I can even understand why - many saw it as a 'woman's issue' and were wary of getting involved.

But it's unavoidable to note if you've been following it that the most vituperative attacks, threats and insults have been aimed at women.

Genderism is misogynist by nature and to its core.

Rudderneck · 29/07/2023 14:53

We are NOW seeing more people....

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