Now that some *men* are commenting, it's all changing over on Twitter...

MN campaign.

We need a N campaign to make sure the original brave souls who spoke up and took the abuse are recognised and celebrated.

There's a difference between the more famous people, those who have some clout in various public spaces, and the less famous people, waging the war on their own.

It's among the latter that the split between how TRAs have been treating women and men is clearest to me. A long list of women have lost their jobs or their positions or been told off by their professional organisations for being transphobic etc. Some men have had this treatment, too, but at one point I kept records and many more women than men were fired, deplatformed and so on, while some men in this group also did, most seemed to get just some rather polite questioning online, at least.

The more famous people include some men such as Glinner who had the whole treatment applied to them, but even there more women were harshly attacked. The Rowling case (too big and too rich to cancel) is the most famous one, but others have, indeed, been canceled, though several have survived (Suzanne Moore, Sarah Ditum, Hadley Freeman etc.).

At the same time, quite a few more public feminists have refused to take a stance or support the TRA ideology, and this makes it hard to do head-counts among the public intellectuals by sex.

Still, I see a sexist or sex difference -based effect in this whole debate, most clearly seen how avidly the female sex is being erased while the male sex is not. I don't know if it's because men are more aggressive in demanding that erasure when they wish to transition than women or because women give in to such demands more often (for wanting to be kind or for subconsciously prioritising others) or because we are all still living in a world where sexism is the quiet undertow which is hard to see. But the overall difference in trends is extremely clear and ends up privileging anyone but bog standard women.

@Qbishy It's lovely that men are finally taking notice. But so incredibly frustrating that women's voices just don't count.

I can see why it’s frustrating. But men are only cottoning on, belatedly, to what women have shown to be true and worthy of attention. I’m pleased that Andrew Neill appears to have taken on board women’s criticism. As a parent with family mired in trans bullshit, I don’t care who tells the truth and who is listened to, as long as my family get forced to confront the incoherence and ridiculousness of the coltish (sp) ideology they have been brainwashed by.

I am personally very grateful to the women who speak up, and thank you all on MN for clarifying my thoughts and educating me. If you could continue to do that despite the very annoying mansplaining that looks likely, you will have my continued thanks.

It really is. Especially about him being ungracious.

However, he doesn’t acknowledge that some other men have been listening to women and raising this issue, actually. But he can have his “me first! I’m the best!” moment pass, as it’s at the expense of other men rather than women. If the men are offended they can pull him up on it.

It says a lot though, doesn’t it, that he claims his interest is economics but he was apparently unaware of Helen Joyce’s work. Her book was two years ago.

I appreciate him acknowledging that his initial reaction to women's responses was flawed.
I thought he would flounce. I expected a Matt Davis (is that what that US cockhead is called?). I thought he would slag off anyone who wasn't him talking about this.
And he didn't.
I expect the same now from everyone else who wakes up. #Woke

If Chole was the wake up call for AN where was he when our own Keira Bell case was going on. That was 2 years ago.

It's a great article. I've never been Andrew Neil's number one fan, but that is pitch perfect.

That is really good from AN.

😁

Oh god, Kirstie Allsopp 🙄 A latecomer to the show, who is busy telling women to be "compassionate".

I don't understand why anyone registers what Kirstie Allsopp thinks about feminism?

It strikes me as comparable to caring what Peter Andre thinks about astrophysics.

Most people are terfs, even if they don't know it yet. And the new culture on twitter is helping them to know it.

I think the case of Kirsty Allsopp is a good indication of how far we have come. One of her latest tweets is saying something like “there’s a debate to be had over sports and spaces and children undergoing irreversible treatment but we need to debate compassionately” and loads of TRAs are thanking her for standing up for them. The fact she is not being called out as a TERF shows how far we have shifted the narrative because if she’d talked about debating these issues even a couple of years ago she’d have been receiving rape threats by now.

One of my brothers was aware of how fucking stupid and unsafe this had become back when I was still naively being kind.

This resonates and reminds me of my late FIL back in the early 2000's. A Lifelong Labour man, a socialist who having done very well in life remained so. He would be raging at the tv and swearing away shouting "Miss Blair and Miss Brown" and despairing of the new Labour Party and the new gender act. We thought he was a dinosaur and mean to the marginalised confused tiny group of transsexuals. I remember thinking how can he be so compassionate in all matters bar this. How right he was. I'm glad he's resting in peace.

There have been a lot of men speaking about this for years though. Glinner is the obvious one. But Joe Rogan has been talking about it for 8 years. Jesse Singal, Colin Wright, Brett Weinstein, Gad Saad, Ricky Gervais, Francis Foster, Konstantin Kisin, Jordan Peterson, Matt Walsh. It's been a couple of years now since Dave Chappelle declared himself 'team terf.' I think it's fair to assume that most of the Kiwi Farm users are men, and Josh Moon really has been fighting tooth and nail in the last year to keep his site up. Plenty of men in real life too. One of my brothers was aware of how fucking stupid and unsafe this had become back when I was still naively being kind.

The biggest thing that has happened in the last year has honestly been the change of culture on Twitter. Of course men like Richard Dawkins and Robert Winston realising how stupid it's gotten and speaking up will peak a LOT of people. Because they are two of the most well known and preeminent biologists in the world. But Dawkins has very much stated that it was Kathleen Stock's work that made him speak out. And he is helping to bring women like Helen Joyce into the awareness of his fans who may not have heard of her. But one of the biggest things that's driving the sudden breakthroughs, is the more open ability to debate on twitter. Most people are terfs, even if they don't know it yet. And the new culture on twitter is helping them to know it.

I hope that Glinner can regain lost ground.

I know - he quite literally lost everything- cancelled so no more jobs, wife / family etc. Poor guy. Hope he does get some credit when the tide fully turns.

I'm not sure any of that really matters in the context of this discussion.

Suppose you are an average guy who reads the paper and maybe watches the news, and are broadly in favour of equality of the sexes and the social changes towards that in the 20th century. Maybe you are a little stuck in the past too, you still talk about beef being raised in slash and burned rain forests.

You've also been very much taught that as a man, you should probably keep pretty quiet about women's issues, or issues about groups you don't belong to, except maybe to nod your head and be an ally.

As far as trans issues go, maybe it seems a bit weird or doesn't make sense, but it's not like all women, or even 90% of them, all seem on the same page. They are really divided, and some of the biggest activists are saying this is ok and does make sense.

You would have to be pretty ballsy to stick your neck out on it and declare a position or get immersed in it. I don't think it's irrelevant that many who do, do so because they have kids or something who get sucked into it, and they feel they need to step in and protect those people under their care.

I think he's just relieved he might finally get back to writing comedy - and see it performed.

He won't be forgotten though for how staunchly he stood up for women, gay people and kids.