Janice Turner on Labour u-turn

Full page feature by Suzamme Moore. Daily Telegraph today.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/07/29/sir-keir-starmer-labour-trans-policy-duffield-russell-moyle/

Do I trust Labour on this issue. Emphatically No.

The trouble is that Angela Rayner and Lisa Nandy are both bears with very little brains, they cannot even speak coherently when being interviewed-unlike Jess Phillips. Therefore I don't feel that they are to be trusted and won't have given the matter much thought beyond following the election campaign managers latest dictat.
Thank goodness for Janice Turner's reasonable and persistent arguements in The Times and elsewhere. She has been marvellous

At the 2019 Labour conference a feminist meeting to discuss GRA reforms had to be held at a secret venue, but even so trans activists pounded the windows and harassed attendees. This year Labour Women’s Declaration, a group created to defend the Equality Act, will hold a fringe event with shadow cabinet speakers inside the main conference centre, advertised in the official programme. After years of leafleting in the rain, they may even be granted a stall. Women, exiled by Labour for so long, are back inside the tent.

The civil war inside Labour is coming into the open.

As for coming inside the tent. Bad news - The witches were already inside the tent. They are EVERYWHERE!

With LWD at conference there will be more open organising and manoeuvring. It is going to get even nastier. More and more secret terfs will be coming out.

Any TRAs reading this you have no idea how many there are and how powerful. The best thing for you to do is to leave the party asp. Remember if you stay you are supporting a party full of terfs.

Witches are taking our party back and the entire Tent. It isn't going to be easy, but battling sexist left wingers is something which has had to be done for as long as the left existed. The whole men are women thing was the most insidious thing yet, but once you see past the illusion it falls apart.

If you want to help rejoin Labour fight from within lots to do. The manifesto is going to be written and there will be a mighty battle to make sure it reflects reality. Win or lose that battle will make us stronger.

Or criticise Labour from outside - DEMAND they do more to win your vote. By doing that you strengthen the pro-woman faction in the party. It doesn't matter whether you trust or vote for Labour. What matters is YOU keep asking them to change.

The thing which doesn't help is pretending that change is impossible. If Tory women can defeat the genderists inside their party, which they did, there is NOTHING stopping left wing or centrist women from doing the same. As soon as gender crits can speak and organise openly the genderists are DOOMED long term - because they have nothing rational to say. Labour, Greens, SNP etc etc. It is all going to go the same way. It will take years to get there for sure, but it can and will be done.

It's mentioned in the times article, not a direct quite. As other posters have said its likely an off record briefing.

I mean they could be wrong and this was all Nandys own opinion, ideas and thoughts. But Nandy frequently referred to a young trans constituent as being an influence on her, so its not a stretch to believe the article

This is huge progress! Well done LWD and everyone who's spent time and energy on getting the Labour Party to see sense.

And all the while...
Sunak is procrastinating on Trans Conversion Ban law...
Sunak is procrastinating on clarifying biological sex >>> gender, as advised by EHRC...
Sunak is procrastinating on stopping children transing at school and informing parents, and protecting kids having to address the transed kids "correctly"...
Sunak is procrastinating at opening up full transparency to parents on sex education materials incl that on gender issues...
Sunak is procrastinating on removing TRA ally Keegan from Education Minister...

Sunak is...or should I say Sunak ISN'T...

Anyway to answer the op, no this hasn't won my trust. It has however won my attention and I recommend that they use it wisely.

The question that needs to be asked, repeatedly, as loudly as possible,

what the actual fuck do you plan to do with all the women excluded from women's spaces and in fact ANY SPACE AT ALL so that male people with a GRC can use women's spaces?

Are you for a country where women who pay equal taxes, who are disabled, traumatised, victims of abuse and assault, of different faiths and cultures and beliefs are excluded from equal access to society?

Own it, or state now how you intend to prevent this happening to women.

Because this cowardly fudging around it shows the deep discomfort and the knowledge that this is wrong, they do not have the guts to openly stand in front of it and explain why a percentage of vulnerable and marginalised women must have nothing so that men can have more.

This needs to be asked loudly and continuously of ALL politicians.

The fact that Labour are still exceptionally proud of the GRA and the EqA says it all for me, they are not inclined to alter either to protect women. It is remarkable this pride for the GRA, they were warned what would happen, - rapists who declare themselves women placed in the female prison estate, the impact on women's sports, the change in collecting accurate statistics about female crime, the fact that criminals who change gender could hide their past offending even if that offending was sexual, and Lord Falconer admitted that they knew all this was likely and were perfectly at ease with it. BUT they got the big issue correct by making sure that primogeniture was secure so males didn't lose out.

Any politician who claims to be proud of the shit show that the GRA has unleashed is not one who cares at all about women or their rights.

Could you possibly supply a screenshot or something where Nandy says this?

Trans, the concept that railroaded everyone for a decade, cancelling and silencing individuals with energy and relish.

Yet, put it under the merest scrutiny, and it falls apart like crumbling cement (see Beth Rigby gentle but pertinent demolition of Stonewall Iain).

It's like a vampire, making hay while the sun isn't out to play, the merest hint of the incoming dawn sunlight destroying it on the spot.

Currently Starmer is looking at this palava, seeing the incoming rays of light of him leading the party to power, and realising he needs to protect the party from the fate of all vampires.

theres no direct quote from nandy @rogdmum i think it’s one of those things that is being briefed off the record

One of the most interesting things for me is the implosion of Labour LGBT and their support of the new approach

Where has Lisa Nandy said she was unduly influenced? I’d really like to see her exact quote.

Lisa actually said she was not going to change!

Indeed. Until we see change it is just words.

It's interesting.

Because they must know that they are going to be questioned about it all, hence the shifting stance. But they appear unable to imagine a situation where they're still going to look ignorant and misogynistic.

Everyone on this board knows, full well, how easy it is to instantly puncture and deflate any TRA argument.

So They're either planning on not giving anyone the chance, or they still really, really don't get it.

It would be easy to assume that the enormous noise from TRAs means they must outweigh women, but they make up such a tiny proportion of the electorate compared to women. But Labour needs young people’s votes much more than the Conservatives do and #BeKind is a big thing amongst the target university students. It is probably politically/electorally more painful for Labour to climb down over this than the Tories.

The question that needs to be asked, repeatedly, as loudly as possible,

what the actual fuck do you plan to do with all the women excluded from women's spaces and in fact ANY SPACE AT ALL so that male people with a GRC can use women's spaces?

Are you for a country where women who pay equal taxes, who are disabled, traumatised, victims of abuse and assault, of different faiths and cultures and beliefs are excluded from equal access to society?

Own it, or state now how you intend to prevent this happening to women.

Because this cowardly fudging around it shows the deep discomfort and the knowledge that this is wrong, they do not have the guts to openly stand in front of it and explain why a percentage of vulnerable and marginalised women must have nothing so that men can have more.

It is difficult to believe, I agree.

How can anyone think that a stance so extreme, so dangerous and so detrimental to women being blamed on the influence of ignorant kids, is a positive thing to fess up about!

I've been watching all this since it first kicked off, going on for a decade now. In all that time, there have always been committed, passionate, labour voting women desperate to believe that they can somehow get the party to listen and care, and grabbing with relief and hope on every little crumb that this might possibly happen. They are endlessly willing to wait, and trust, and work from the inside, with patience and commitment. Many, like Janice, (and Rosie Duffield and Joanna Cherry and JKR) are insightful and highly articulate with the ear of people at the top and a wide reach so they have been heard all this time, and have often paid heavily for having the courage to speak.

And now, five minutes from a general election, there's a few vague 'crumbs' where when the leader says 'adult human female' we all know by 'female' he means men and women who identify as female at the moment, and is merely hoping enough of the general public are ill informed enough that they'll trust him and be fooled enough to vote as he wants them to. And that they don't realise he's quite intentionally conning them until he's in power and it's too late.

Sadly, I rest my case.

The shifting position seems to conclude that a GRC is the key, and it's going to be easier to get one.

It still shocks me that they haven't thought this through, though.

You're not allowed to ask to see one, for a start.

And how does that work with things like sport? A GRC is meaningless.

And do they really think it's going to be acceptable to TRAs for men to have to produce their GRC in toilets, changing rooms etc?

They've had sooo long to think about this. Yet I guarantee they still haven't.

The thing is it's been going on too long. They might be reading the writing on the wall now, but fuck me, how could they ever have thought that incarcerated women should be housed with male rapists because that's what the rapists want??

Yes. And Lisa Nandy's excuse (if it's true) that she was only doing what her young campaign team told her is the most feeble, pusillanimous and downright pathetic thing I've heard for a long time. How can you trust someone like that to serve in cabinet if she's not prepared to think for herself?

It makes me think that if you let this lot anywhere near power it's going to be a total shambles. But then, it's a total shambles already so what choice is there?

It might be enough to stop me voting for the stories, because Sunak is fine words and no action. If he actually DID something I might have to hold my nose and vote for them.

This too.

If they're going to finally realise what wins votes, then logically, the race should begin. They're never going to please transactivists compromising even an iota. So they might as well go all in.

in fact, if it's going to be used as a political football, that's exactly what should happen.

👍😀

I originally typed out “her” but then felt I ought not make assumptions in writing and changed to their.

In this reply, I was going to end with “apologies for the misgendering” and a wink / laugh emoji, but thought better of that as well - too tricky to convey tone via emojis sometimes, especially humour.

Anyway, key point: your post was excellent.

I think there are three possibilities:

1. Labour has had a genuine change of heart, understands the error of its ways, now fully supports women.
2. They haven't changed their minds at all, this is a cynical ploy to win votes and they will backtrack and introduce gender id once in government.
3. They have made a pragmatic decision to change policy, because they know that the Tories are using this issue to attack them, and it could therefore lose them votes. But once in power, they will stick to the policy because they have realised how unpopular self-id is.

I think we can safely rule out 1. But at the moment I think 3 is more likely than 2. The only thing that concerns me is that they win a landslide that ushers in a whole new generation of 20-something Labour MPs, who regard self-ID as a core issue.

The thing is it's been going on too long. They might be reading the writing on the wall now, but fuck me, how could they ever have thought that incarcerated women should be housed with male rapists because that's what the rapists want??

How can you ever have got to that point, if you regard yourself suitable to run a country?

it was ages ago that they were all squirming about being unable to define a woman. How fucking long does it take? And they still don't appear to be up to speed with the misogyny, the whole issue just seems to be unfathomably unpopular to them.

That they are only slowly and blinkingly becoming aware of the swathes of men like Isla Bryson, and that Baker tosser encouraging men to hit women, does suggest an ideological position that they are struggling to shake.

Fortunately, one of the steps they have taken is to relax their stance on no debate.

Because that's all it takes.

What that will do to the individuals concerned, God only knows. They're not over being made to look like utter twats yet.