Janice Turner on Labour u-turn

And as Reem Alsalem of the UN stated so eloquently, the erasure of the language means that even if there is a deluge of Adam Bryson cases, we will never hear about them. Media blackouts and reporting males as 'women' mean we just will not know, they will not show up in stats.

The narrative from the managerial Left class is that Self ID is running in Argentina, Malta, Ireland etc,and there is no deluge of Adam Bryson type cases.

That and we deserve to have privacy and dignity

People bang on about males getting that but seem to forget women and girls, by forcing males in their spaces

Self ID was always going to create exactly those instances. It's the whole reason we've been kicking up a stink. If you build a way for predatory, abusive men to access vulnerable women, it'd be a strange universe if they didn't take it - especially when facing conviction for a sex offense. Why wouldn't they?

I do wonder what would have transpired if once Self ID was passed in Scotland, there hadn't been an Adam Bryson to immediately show up the policy as the disaster that it was.

Had there been no immediate firestorm, and the policy would have gone into effect with no instant crisis, where would we be today with Starmer and the Labour Party?

Oh, come on. He was a member of the secret FB group focused ejecting disobedient women from the Labour Party. It’s clear from his latest interview that his supposed change of heart is motivated by avoiding the disaster and embarrassment which befell the once unassailable NS.

This every day of the week and twice on Sundays. The closer you look the more cynical and arse covering it is.

No one has explained just what is so stigmatising and demeaning about a medicalised process. No, wait, Dodds pretty much said the quiet part out loud: that a medicalised process risks stigma for trans people to the extent that it is insufficiently distanced from psychiatric diagnosis .
From which I can only conclude that Dodds regards people with a psychiatric condition as stigmatised and is absolutely fine with perpetuating that stigma , provided that trans people are kept at arms length from the 'taint'.

Does Labour think that we're all just out of the egg? This 'change' isn't the result of a policy review, it is the result of a marketing review. They have taken their dog turd of a policy, wrapped it up in paper, scribbled Green and Black's on the paper and are now trying to convince us that it's a bar of chocolate.

What has actually changed? They now respect the genuinely held views of gender critical women both inside and outside the party. Rosie Duffield doesn't seem to be convinced.

They now recognise that woman means adult female. However, there is no attempt to clarify that female means biological female and I suspect that their definition is actually any adult with female on their current birth certificate.

They now talk about the need for single sex spaces. Please see the previous paragraph.

They have rowed back from self-id but do want a less costly and demeaning process for obtaining a GRC. This will be a simple process requiring one doctor and a registrar. However, LRM has let the cat out of the bag by saying that they will demedicalise the process. Why do you need a doctor in a demedicalised process?

Sorry, I'm not buying it. Not one single fucking word.

I can imagine Labour screwing us over once in, they are sneaky liars on this but people seem to be buying it.

The one thing that people will react to is males like the swimming case showing people the reality. That will not change no matter how much politicians want women to stfu

We have eyes, and hopefully still SM if they don’t get to that.

Idk, it’s so hard, like a poisonous vine.

Also a crucial part is you don’t allow this level of capture to filter to schools. Too late in the most part. But for those about to hear about it, it should stop.

There’s a reason religions get children onside early, it’s incredibly hard to disrupt.

Good point. The unions still retain a lot of influence and they’re full on TWAW. However my impression (which could well be wrong) is that KS isn’t as in thrall to them as previous leaders.

the problem as always is how entrenched this all is. That I sit in meetings with clinicians from the NHS who use the phrase “pregnant people” without blinking. How do you undo that level of capture?

Some of the worst unions are the ones run by transmaidens. Didn't these women learn anything in how women were treated by Left misogynist men back in the day? Repeating the same old mistakes.

Oh, I forgot the new misogyny is BeKind.

GC at heart? My arse.

Opportunist empty vessels, the pair of them. Not a conviction or a moral compass between them.

Now they've decided to pretend they always knew what a woman was but won't actually admit they were so FUCKING STUPID they thought it was 'wrong' to say that only woman has a cervix, and that they were so FUCKING MISOGYNIST they booted actual committed Labour members out of the party over this?

Fucking liars.

I’ve been pondering the role of the unions, both on any likely manifesto commitments and if/once Labour get back into government. They are all, barring one or two exceptions who may have since fallen, unapologetically TWAW and unsupportive of gender critical women. How much sway do the unions have on policy?

I genuinely feel Starmer/Streeting are likely GC at heart, but the overwhelming philosophy of the managerial Left ethos that has permeated the party and larger activist/unionist movement, backed up by the Left artistic fraternity, is firmly TRA.

I could possibly be convinced in the future re Starmer if he takes actual action - ie makes clear that males cannot change sex and become female and that a desire to ‘live as’ a male person’s internal story about what a women is does not take precedence over actual women. But Streeting? Oh, come on. He was a member of the secret FB group focused ejecting disobedient women from the Labour Party. It’s clear from his latest interview that his supposed change of heart is motivated by avoiding the disaster and embarrassment which befell the once unassailable NS.

I'm not 100% how I feel about this.

Thanks for the thread though as it's given lots of food for thought as always .

i think ultimately it's what Hepwo said, what's the good of defining a woman as an adult female if any bloke can buy a certificate to say he is on and any bloke can use a certificate (that we can't even ask for a copy of of) to claim he has a legal right to be in spaces reserved for women.

The issue here is the GRC. It needs abolishing. No man should have the right to be legally female. It's simply absurd.

I can't deny anything you've written.
Look at all the other areas he's reneged on or UTurned on screechingly.

All the policy positions he was elected to the leadership on.
His volte faces on the Green New Deal, two child benefit cap.
He also made favourable noises on maybe bringing PR voting in.
His move from Remainer to in some ways the most ardent Brexiter in Parliament.

And now this area.

You could even be cynical about his positions on anti semitism and Corbyn. He was happy to serve under him, with that atmosphere in the party to be transferred to UK wide public policy.

Once Labour were smashed in 2019, only then did he come out and row back. He's ousting of Corbyn et al from the party is typical boys games, showing to all watching that he's the biggest beast, the one not to be messed with.

The other interesting point about tortoise Starmer is that he's engineering a whole bunch of Mini Me Starmers as Labour candidates around the country, to parrot the proprietary Starmer lines.

But they'll have to wait until Starmer himself settles in those lines.

Clearest example is the wet behind the ears recent winner in the Selby bye election.
This guy will never have anything original to say, and has already slagged off Germaine Greer. He's the future, folks.

So, here's the dichotomy. Starmer has almost complete control of the party, as he inches them to crawl over the line in 2024. He's an Alpha Starmer in trouncing the Corbynistas. Is happy to disappoint activists with one flip flop over another. But is a Beta Starmer when it comes to asserting himself on gender politics.

That's why the doubt is still there, especially with the likes of trans activist lawyer Robin Moira White saying that this is messaging to get Labour in, then trans activist policy reasserts itself.

I still suspect he thinks he has been very clever in enabling self-id in practice., whilst shutting us down as it’s been ‘sorted’. We will have to fight hard to keep making progress against GI.

Yes. In contrast to the pp who thinks the fight is over I’ve not been so concerned as I am now on this.

That many think this is sorted is concerning.

We will lose if people don’t ask direct and practical questions.

@RealityFan

I agree that KS is not a gender ideologue. That doesn’t change the fact that when he faced a choice of coming down in favor of gender ideology or women’s rights, he
chose gender ideology and enacted this fulsomely. By this, he has shown very clearly that he is not interested in or motivated by women’s rights.

And his fulsomeness in supporting GI is not currently being shown in supporting the GC position.

I still suspect he thinks he has been very clever in enabling self-id in practice., whilst shutting us down as it’s been ‘sorted’. We will have to fight hard to keep making progress against GI.

If this is true,then resign as an MP: if you can't think for yourself and outsource your thinking to some wet behind the ears,gobby , inexperienced, no nothing 20 year olds, then you are a danger to society if you expect to be in any form of a position of power or 'leadership'.
Two words, second one is 'off' ,Lisa Nandy

You have no argument from me that Starmer is terrible on all this, happy to take women for granted, small m misogynist in dismissing fears, big M in isolating Rosie and LWD.

My take is that he's not a gender ideologue, I think he's just dismissive of the concerns of GCs especially GC women, either couldn't see them, or they're obstructing the path to power.
Genuinely think he sees Rosie as a traitor to his cause.

And contrasted badly against how much praise he lavished on Luciana Berger and other Labour women over the Corbynista anti semitism period.

I'm in no doubt about this. Politics is the sewer of life. Otoh, he made meaningful change at the DPP, and I think his tortoise like long march to power is just him as the "anti Boris Johnson" type of leader that the late 2020s/30s UK may get.

I have to determine...can I look at his history in the round, good at DPP, awful w Rosie and negotiating trans politics...and then extrapolate to what a government full of trans allies, and locked down pro TRA union movement, would represent and carry out.

In the past it was worrying about a Labour govt letting striking unions dictate to the country, then Blair came along, and we had calm govt for 15 years.

Do I believe Starmer will be a Blair...or a late 70s type govt, but instead of the chaos of strikes, the maelstrom of genderised demands and acquiescences?

So true. Very well said.

It makes me think of the mayor in Jaws telling people the water is safe

Completely agree with you. Starmer has shown such breath-taking disdain for women that I can't believe he's serious now.

@RealityFan i could not disagree more that KS is GC at heart. No-one who was would have treated RD the way he did, allowed the bullying of her ( allowing is enabling and not a neutral act), banned GC organizations from conference, or made comments like ‘ one shouldn’t say only women have a cervix’ or ‘some women have penises’. What KS has shown very clearly is that he, at best, is not interested in women’s rights or issues, nor in listening to our voices.

Having considered all this, I believe Keir Starmer thinks he has found a way to get in self-ID in practice, without calling it that, and he’s gambling on Gender ideologies realizing this, and GC women being too stupid to.

I think we now have the fight of our lives to try to make sure our voices and arguments are now not completely lost as the matter is now, politically, ‘sorted’. The fact that Dodds was not prepared to accept invitations from the BBC to talk about the proposals is not a good sign.

Am just mulling what I can do in practice, and it has occurred to me that now might be a good time to write to my Labour MP, Mary Foy.
I wrote to her on this issue once before and got no reply at all. To be honest I felt frightened about writing, because I knew the danger that my letter would be misframed as transphobic (it was a very respectful template letter created by some GC group or other).
So when no reply came I didn't push it, fearful of a response that attributed something hateful to me . (I know; I'm a coward. But it would be a knife twist in the stomach to be faced with a situation like that.)
But the recent mood music might make it harder to ignore a communication on this subject, and I would at least find out whether my own MP is worth supporting.
I wonder if anyone is planning to compose a template letter that would simply ask MPs to provide a little more detail about the current policy, and some reassurance that it actually amounts to any real cultural change in the party.