Looks like Italy have banned surrogacy

LGBT families shouldn’t be able to buy a baby from a poor European woman anymore than non-LGBT families. HTH.

This is great news. I hope other countries clamp down on the trafficking of women and children through surrogacy too.

It's possible to see something like this as good in isolation even if we don't agree with every part of the bigger picture.

I also agree that birth certificates need to be simple facts rather than what people wish.

@turbonerd And Meloni’s Fratelli d'Italia party has a direct lineage back to Mussolini’s fascism. The man may be dead but the spirit is alive and well in the current Italian government.

This is a good thing. I also agree that a birth certificate should be a statement of fact.

I hope surrogacy and egg/sperm donors are banned. It’s never about the children.

Very good news to see a government calling a halt to the trade in babies.

Good news

This. I'm delighted that selling babies and exploiting poor women is banned. Otherwise the Italian government can get in the bin.

The birth cert should be a statement of fact.

Also, glad they have outlawed International surrogacy.

But Mussolini is not the General Supreme on Italy now. In fact, I think he might be dead.

Sorry I got that wrong @GrumpyPanda. So the new law will imprison international baby traffickers. Not got a problem with that.

I agree. But it makes much more sense to ban international surrogacy first, if you're truly against it. Domestic surrogacy could be tightly regulated and controlled, if a country wanted to do so (I would still be in favour of a domestic ban). Otherwise you are saying to people - that's a dangerous and unethical practice. You're welcome to do it, but go use some other country's poor women and burden their health services.

No, it doesn't bring them into line. I seriously doubt there's any other European country that threatens people with jail terms for hiring a surrogate abroad! Typically they'll a) not allow it in-country and b) not recognise it for purposes of birth registration/citizenship (unless the father-to-be is also the biological father.)

Meloni (Italian pm) is a homophobic bigot. She's setting gay rights back by decades. I can't stand the sight of her.

But banning surrogacy is the right thing to do. It isn't just banned for gay couples (though that was clearly Meloni's target), it's banned for everyone. Domestically and internationally. Every country should do this.

The rest of it... the Italian government hate gay people. It's awful.

Surrogacy was already illegal in Italy, this law extends the ban to include surrogacy done abroad.

So are you in favour of protecting rich women more than poor ones?

Funny how no one ever makes this point to those who want to rejoin the EU (one of the earliest and most vociferous supporters of a united Europe was of course Oswald Mosley)

Creating a baby for the specific purpose of gestating it in another women and handing that baby over like a product (even to a loved friend or family member) is wrong because this is a child. Not to be commoditised in any way.

Perfectly and very clearly put, thank you. I have always felt uncomfortable with surrogacy and couldn't put my finger on why.

don’t understand how you can know that and cheer ‘hurrah for the blackshirts, cos they’re getting surrogacy right’.

That's why no one is doing that. The tweet at the top of the thread was, afaik, cheering on a radfem group who'd campaigned against surrogacy.

Now, can you make a coherent defence of surrogacy? Or are you cheering that on?

but not wanting to support fascism is often a great starting point

Is it fascism to believe human beings should not be bought or sold?

Are you really comfortably aligning yourself with slave owners of the past?

This law has everything to do with the rest of the homophobe policies of the current government. Surrogacy was already illegal in Italy, this law extends the ban to include surrogacy done abroad. It disproportionately affects lgbt families who, unlike heterosexual couples, are obviously unable to 'hide' the fact of having sought surrogacy. You may agree or disagree with surrogacy, but to think that this particular law, passed under this particular government and this particular time is unrelated to an increasingly hostile environment for gay and lesbian parents and their children (!) is extremely shortsighted. This is not about 'protecting women' (whatever that means), but about protecting this rightwing government's idea of what a family should look like.
Greetings from Italy from a very worried lesbian mum

Tell me what else Mussolini was renowned for

Invaded Abyssinia (now Ethiopia).

If exploiting the resources of poor countries, as under European colonialism, was not ok, why is it ok for rich Western couples to exploit the women of poor countries today?

Actually, I’m usually a huge fan of nuance and shades of grey, but not wanting to support fascism is often a great starting point.

And you are aware that Fratelli d'Italia ARE real life fascists? With a history tracing them back to the Italian neo facist movement starting in 1945?

I don’t understand how you can know that and cheer ‘hurrah for the blackshirts, cos they’re getting surrogacy right’. I genuinely don’t.

Also a political party’s central ideological core isn’t just an ‘other thing’ to be ‘fixed’. You can’t just tweak fascism. However, you can make it more palatable to the masses with good PR.

Where do you draw the line at cheering on fascists? Will it only be when they come for you?

I'm doing no such thing. Some of their policies (ivf only for heterosexual couples, so excluding lesbians etc) are entirely wrong.
How are you with cheering on people who want to commoditise babies and exploit women in poorer countries?

tell me what else Mussolini was renowned for

A poster on the ‘Aliens???’ thread says he found an alien spacecraft and covered it up, @LemonLymanDotCom.

HTH with your intellectual debate.