Believing in gender is a bit like believing in God

That's interesting. Proof please.

God does exist, whether atheists like it or not.

Well, that's news to me...

Yes it's a religion, complete with creed, mantras and a male priesthood ably assisted by eager-to-please nuns.

As an apostate from Irish Catholicism, I am struck by the way the new religion has had Ireland down on its knees so quickly.

There are a lot of rather arrogant assumptions being made by PPs, and I am fed up of them comparing gender ideology to religion. It is more comparable to a fashion cult or social trend.
God does exist, whether atheists like it or not. Jesus was a documented historical figure, and we have the eye witness accounts of His resurrection, from the disciples, which St Paul recorded after interviewing St Peter in Rome. And remember, St Paul was originally a hostile witness, en route to persecute Christians before encountering the voice of Christ on the road to Damascus.
Many of the 2.3 billion Christians alive in the world today have had direct encounters with the presence of God. I am one of them, having been a rabid atheist until my thirties.
Gender ideology does not make sense, in that it is entirely predicated on stereotypes. No man can ever “feel like a woman”, as he has no terms of reference for that, and will never have the intracellular biology that is the only thing all women have in common. To compare that with the perfectly rational worship of God, is utterly inappropriate.

I think this is the point. It's perfectly possible for people to live as they wish. I think it would be prejudiced to object to someone on the grounds that they are extremely gender non conforming or have made personal choices about their body, as a well informed adult, which do not affect anyone else. What they think or feel about their sex or 'gender' is their own business as long as they conform to exactly the same expectations as everyone else e.g. males staying out of female spaces. The problem is 'gender ideology' which is being forced on society in an authoritarian manner whether we agree with it or not.

@fihawo Im not sure where you got the idea that teachers in state schools are not allowed to say that religion is true or a fact. They very much do do this in CofE schools (and I imagine Catholic ones too). Remember that in huge areas of the U.K. you literally have no choice but to go to a religious school, especially at primary level.

Exactly this. My belief in God places no requirement on you to believe in God as well, or to at least pretend that you do.
That's the difference, gender ideology requires that non-believers change their behaviour and language, religion does not.

Well, perhaps if it was treated like Zoroastrianism, say, or perhaps Rastafari? Would that be OK?

More seriously, what I meant was that, in state schools (such as my grandkids attend), teachers are not allowed to say that religious tenets are true, just that some people believe them (and that whether the teachers believe them or not).

I'd agree there's no need for RE in schools. That's another argument. For now, though, since we have the concession that religion is not taught in ordinary schools as fact, that would be a start regarding gender thingumibobs - as a kind of compromise, like.

I don't think that's true. There couldn't be a God (in the Yahweh/Christ/Allah sense). Not possible.

I'm not particularly inclined to argue with you. But in any case I don't hate you.

I just don't believe what you do ... I'm sure my family could get on with yours, our children could go to the same schools, we'd hardly mention our differences if we met ...

My belief in the impossibility of a God is just a part of what I think. Once it might have caused me to be burnt or beheaded, but nowadays I know I can be friends with people who believe a God is possible, even actual.

If only gender believers could be like that!

Of course, an alternative way of putting this would be to say "I reject gnosticism." Preferrably coupled with a reference to the Council of Nicaea that saw the Gnostic body-soul dualism labeled a heresy 😀

In the U.K., believing in god, particularly the right kind of god, gets you educational privileges (preferential access to schools) and political privileges (the leaders of the Church of England are all members (by right, not elected) of the House of Lords)).

I think it a bit different to faith in a god as it is a belief about yourself rather than in another being. I don't have a gender identity myself but can accept that others do and that it feels real to them.
Am I an atheist or a believer in your eyes?

@fihawo
“One of the most important ways it should be treated as a religion is in schools.”

I very much hope it doesn’t get treated the same as a religion in schools. Permitted to discriminate in admissions against non-believers or those with non-believers as parents? Compulsory indoctrination every morning? 3 periods a week dedicated to it? And in secondary a compulsory GCSE in the subject, taking up a valuable option slot? (And the secondary isn’t even CofE unlike all the infants and juniors).

Absolutely a religion. Now imagine living in a country where everyone has to adhere to that religion or be called a bigot/lose their job/get death and rape threats. And the police won't do anything about it. Because you are living in such a country.

I know trans people who don't think they were born in the wrong body. I feel like there is an assumption that this is what all trans people think but it isn't true.
They just know that they have gender dysphoria and their life is made bearable by changing their body. This doesn't equate to a belief that their body is the wrong one, it is more of an pragmatic way for them to get on with their life.

In general, in modern European societies, believing in God comes with an obligation to treat other people well, but doesn't put any responsibility on them to treat you in a particular way.

I know that there have been times and places where that hasn't been the case, but here and now.

I think it's a faith-based position but at one step removed. A religious person could give you some idea of what they think their god is.

Belief in gender seems to mean a belief that somewhere out there is a meaningful concept - although nobody can describe it yet - which will somehow make it possible for a man to be a woman.

I bring this up when people say the 'wrong body' stuff. I just say "Oh right, I get you, I am an atheist so have a different perspective"
This always prompts questions and I then talk about souls etc - always makes them think

I think there is a difference: God might exist.

Great post BonfireLady. It's the publicness of gender identity validation that winds me up. My very religious friends seem to cope quite happily with living alongside people of different faiths and none in a pluralistic society.

It's exactly the analogy I use when I talk to people about why I don't have either a gender or a gender identity. I just have a sex relating to my physical body: female. What I do as a female is a combination of how much I embrace ot reject the sex-based expectations that society puts my way as I go about my life.

I've explored this on a few threads on this board and it was pointed out to me (and I agree) that a major difference is that nobody needs me to affirm the existence of God/Allah as part of my support of their Christian/Muslim belief. PPs have said the same above here too.

If someone's belief in gender (identity) is fragile enough that my lack of belief in it upsets them, I will accept that they see me as a transphobe. Similar to how a Christian may view me as blasphemous or "unsaved" in relation to the other 44,000 who will be saved on the day of reckoning, when I tell them I don't believe in God.

Even with that important caveat, I still find it a helpful analogy.

I agree that it can be compared to a religion (or cult) with its own chants and incantations- (TWAW).
The sacred caste are transwomen, souls trapped in the wrong body.

I agree with this.

However, the problem with gender ideology is that believing you have a gender identity rests fundamentally on having this affirmed by other people. A Christian, Muslim and atheist can all be in a room together and hold their beliefs entirely independently of each other. From what I can gather it's not enough for someone to privately have a 'gender identity'. It requires others to join the individual in their personal perception and signal that they do so.

All the virtue signalling with pronouns is a declaration that you will, if the situation arises, play along and to put pressure on people who would rather quietly keep their beliefs to themselves because if no one else believes in it, an individual's gender identity does not exist.

I agree it's exactly like religion.

My workplace do constant surveys. Always 'do you identify as the genser you were assigned at birth' 'yes, no, prefer not to say'

Any option other than 'yes' sticks you in the trans category. And 'yes' implies you believe in it. It's infuriating.

It's exactly the same as asking 'what religion are you?' 'Protestant' or 'Catholic'.

It's anonymised info. The company has a range of measures in place to encourage a more diverse workforce - all good stuff - and it reports on diversity etc - has targets for diversifying senior roles etc.I don't have any concerns about that. And it's encouraged but not mandatory