How can we prevent the trans issue from being a gift to the right wing?

Also the comments being leaked via the Guardian re women's sex based rights is grossly offensive and offers no comfort for those of us who see are rights being erased.

The Guardian so desperate to make Labour look goo have even published the two faced weasel words twice. Once as a "news" story and once as an "opinion".

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jul/24/labour-will-lead-on-reform-of-transgender-rights-and-we-wont-take-lectures-from-the-divisive-tories
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/24/labour-vows-to-modernise-simplify-and-reform-gender-recognition-act

And what are they offering. They are offering nothing for women, just saying our reactionary women make do with this (same sex exemptions which enshrines that trans women have more rights than biological women) is all you deserve.

Added to which they want to make it easier for those who want to transition.

ie even assuming they have listened to any gender critical campaign, they have not paid the slightest bit of interest, and done nothing to re-assure women that are rights are safe with them.

The remarkable thing, is that bar some complete dramatic change caused by some external events, the Tories will lose. So this should be a time for Labour to be bold.

But they aren't.

So for those who say we are moving to the right.

We are, but ironically that is because Labour has moved to the right, which gives more impetus for the Tories to move further right, rather than being a number of different factions of toryism.

When there is no left, how can it not be that politics in the UK is moving right?

I know of no one who has been expelled from the LP for being GC.

Which parralel universe are you living in. To name just one. The author of the Femicide Census, ceo of the nia project. Live long Labour member and said she wasn't welcome.

Same has happened to a number of women, many from generations of Labour voters. The want to be in Labour and Labour wont have them.

Which brings up one thing that Labour does seem to have a huge lead on over the tories. The way they vet members and parachute in centrally approved condidates. They are about as democratic as a politbureau.

Are you aware that although the MSM media makes out that Starmer has dealt with anti semitism in the Labour Party, that at the same time it has expelled (again long standing) Jewish members of the Labour party the position Starmer takes on Israel and the Occupied Territories.

It is really interesting that media isn't make as much fuss about this clear dictatorial management of the Labour Party which they would have done had say Corbyn done the same.

So on behalf of all the women who actively want to be part of the Labour party but have been cancelled by the Labour Party, please dont make out with is a woman friendly party.

Plenty of women in the LP are GC and believe women have the right to their safe places ( unlike the Conservatives see above.)

Leaving aside the 'safe places' instead of 'single-sex spaces' sleight of hand, it's nonsense to say nobody in the Conservative party is GC. There are GC men & women among the Tories. To give just one shining example, see Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne. TRA extremists have been reporting her to the HoL in their thousands, I believe, & yet she has not been dislodged. Her work for children & women is amazing. You won't find anyone more GC than Emma. And she's not the only one who knows which way is up.

Came back to this thread to see how it was going, and whaddayaknow, we've reached the 'you're all fascists!' point. Already.

@MissAnneLister - are you in America?Their politics are quite different to UK politic. Their right is not our right. If anything, our right is closer to their left than our left is to their left.

And identity politics is really neither left nor right. Both sides have authoritarians.

I always find these memes floating through my head when we reach the 'you're all fascists!' point. No, we're not. And the person shouting it has lost the argument (has no argument to start with?).

Sorry many posts since I last commented, but want to respond to these:

I remember you asking a similar question on a previous thread but I don't think I ever saw an answer.
That's because as i said we keep having these threads, and by and large they are pointless as it moves nothing forward. (sigh)

Sorry but you 100% choose which party you vote into power. There’s no one holding a gun to your head forcing you to vote one way or another. Stop making excuses and acting like you are not choosing where to use your voting power.
This remark is so patently stupid, but just to point out the group with power, is the party making the choices. It could be you like one set of choice more than an other, or you thinkg both are not worth voting for. But well done for showing why so many peope are turned off by the righteous left ie believe what I tell you and if you dont you are an idiot. (A real vote winner)

The conservatives actually started all this craziness with Maria Millers consultation on gender equality and proposals to move to self ID. For some reason posters always forget that.
Others have correct this misinformation and childish (taabloid) idea that individuals are roaming round parliament acting individually. Horrible as it might be to remember that the initial consultation came as a result of a recommendation by the Women and Equalities Committee who thought trans, and lesbian and gay people weren't getting enough rights. So they had no interest in what women might think. And it is to the credit of all the women's groups that sprung up, MN FWR, and some individuals who said hold on, following a trans positive agenda will impact on women. And guess what, the Government responded to the information they got via the consultation. Which by the way had a majority in favour of self id, but it was implied too many were automated responses. And yes believe it or not, people may support or oppose a law from slightly different perspectives. Feminist arguing for women's sex based rights will be doing so from a different perspective of a conservative who may have "traditional" ideas about women and protecting their dignaties. (This is why having endless 6th form proclomations being offered as political analysis just stops and considered arguements. Its all ya boo sucks.)

Instead of policies, they are pushing 'missions,' presumably so their ideas can't be stolen prior to a GE.
thanks for digging that out. However a mission is a clear statement we cant guarantee anything.

I am GC.

I believe we have a Conservative Government and it is under this Conservatives that
1 we are seeing men in women's prisons,
2.the NHS saying there can't have been a 'rape' as there were no men on the ward (there was a man ) etc etc.
3.men are being allowed to take part in women's sports etc etc.

I can't see how we can blame other parties ( who have no power) for what the Conservatives have done or have allowed in England when they do have all the power.

I am sure that Rosie Duffield Labour MP has not been expelled from the Labour Party for being GC.

I am also sure that I heard Wes Streeting Labour MP Shadow Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, say on TV in reply to Julia Hartley-Brewer's question, 'men have penises and women have vaginas here ends my biology lesson'. he has not been expelled.

Professor Lord Winston ( Labour peer) has said that no one can change sex multiple times. He has not been expelled either.

I know of no one who has been expelled from the LP for being GC. Plenty of women in the LP are GC and believe women have the right to their safe places ( unlike the Conservatives see above.)

Sheffield Central Labour did not select gender fluid Eddie Izzard to be their Labour Candidate at the next General Election but a local woman Cllr Abtisam Mohamed, a solicitor.

It certainly is not universally the position of Left Wing people that they are not CG.

Indeed the position of the very left wing Communist Party is resolutely GC. It's view is that this is a right wing ploy/argument to split the working class when we should be fighting the Conservatives from a class position.

We should be voting to get rid of the Conservatives who have ruined our country because of their appalling policies where no public service is working and working people have suffered repeated cuts to wages and salaries while eg corrupt companies have paid out record dividends while loading the same companies with huge debts.

Vote for whichever candidate LibDem or Labour or other, will oust the Conservative.

Remember, it's the woman/wife who's being small minded and prejudicial in refusing to accept the man/husband. All they want is understanding and complicity.

And Labour will ensure that is enshrined in law.

What clown world do the left exist in?

And Dodds say that bad faith actors exist in equal measure on both sides.

Brave new world, alright. Presided over by moral cowards.

Exactly @nothingcomestonothing No political party in the UK is campaigning to restrict abortion or access to contraception.

there are no human rights that trans people don’t have in the UK

the USA and the uk are very very different and it’s deeply tedious to have to keep explaining this

Genuinely, what are you talking about? Who in the UK is 'lobbying against women's sexual freedoms'? Or are you one of those posters who thinks that the US situation maps onto the UK? Because it doesn't.

' too gutless to own that you are openly and frankly desirous of creating an unequal male supremacist society in which women and children are abused in the name of male freedoms. Largely sexual freedoms'

Sigh. The people lobbying against women's sexual freedoms are also the ones campaigning against trans rights. That's just the boring reality. It might be ideologically unsatisfactory, but it is there.

@nothingcomestonothing I've seen similar things but not that one.

'Impressive taste in clothing'? uh-errr 😂

Since we're at the 'accusations of fascism ' part of the thread, presumably it's a good time to post this?

By accepting there are other issues as well, and not accepting verbal bribes which are empty words to pander to certain groups, much like the immigration issues. Don’t be fooled they have a position down to FWR!

I wonder if trans-rights activism would show parallels with left-wing authoritarianism?

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/psychological-dimensions-left-wing-authoritarianism/620185/

Intriguingly, the researchers found some common traits between left-wing and right-wing authoritarians, including a “preference for social uniformity, prejudice towards different others, willingness to wield group authority to coerce behavior, cognitive rigidity, aggression and punitiveness towards perceived enemies, outsized concern for hierarchy, and moral absolutism.”

...

Costello and his colleagues started fresh. They developed what eventually became a list of 39 statements capturing sentiments such as “We need to replace the established order by any means necessary” and “I should have the right not to be exposed to offensive views.” Subjects were asked to score the statements on a scale of 1 to 7. They showed a trait that the researchers described as “anti-hierarchical aggression” by agreeing strongly that “If I could remake society, I would put people who currently have the most privilege at the bottom.” By agreeing with statements such as “Getting rid of inequality is more important than protecting the so-called ‘right’ to free speech,” they showed an attitude called “top-down censorship.” And they showed what the research team called “anti-conventionalism” by endorsing statements such as “I cannot imagine myself becoming friends with a political conservative.”

And it begs the same question I've seen from a number of posters across a number of threads today.

Labour: are you this ill informed and stupid that you don't KNOW the problems and complexities involved? Have you seriously managed to escape all knowledge when it's all over the public domain for anyone with a brain who needs to be involved? And if so, wtf are you doing?

Or are you fully aware, and going to do it anyway, but are too gutless to own that you are openly and frankly desirous of creating an unequal male supremacist society in which women and children are abused in the name of male freedoms. Largely sexual freedoms. With their lesser rights and status fixed in law to prevent their resisting or protesting this. And if so, wtf are you doing? Extremist left governments tend to create the same dictators and body counts as extremist right governments, totalinarianism isn't any nicer if it comes in red rather than blue.

Which is it?

Unbelievable that they have put that back on the table.

All the lies about that are being regurgitated.

Starting with calling it a veto.

From the honest party?

They can still divorce normally right or are you not allowed to traumatise tw in that way? Probably illegal or labour want it to be. So progressive 🤣🤣

Yes. Definitely preventing women being able to escape a marriage when a man changes it unilaterally from the contract they agreed to, is progressive and morally great.

<slow handclap>

Scrap the outdated spousal consent mechanism.

So are any of the "Tories hate women" posters going to respond to this?

Dodds doesn't even believe women married to men who are transitioning should have the simple right to leave that marriage to the man they married BEFORE he changes his birth certificate. They want women to be forced to divorce them as women.

Who was it you said hates women again?

Today Annaliese Dodds has doubled down on that, apparently speaking on behalf of the Labour party.

Annaliese Dodds: To modernise, simplify and reform the gender recognition law, we will:

Replace the panel of anonymous doctors who oversee decisions with a registrar model.

Replace the 'acquired gender' period with a reflection period.

Scrap the outdated spousal consent mechanism.

https://twitter.com/AnnelieseDodds/status/1683434056225112065

Fantastic.

It's in Labour's hands to stop this being 'a gift to the right wing'. They just need to support women & women's rights.

I don't know why they haven't thought of this for themselves. Seems like stating the bleeding obvious.

Jess Phillips put her name on a private member's bill with Maria Miller to change the Equality Act to say gender identity.

She also thinks that spousal consent is 'awful'

I don't see how we can prevent it being a gift to the right wing if the Labour Party doesn't come to its senses in the run up to the general election. In fact it's already a gift to the Mail, TalkTV, GBnews etc.

Jess Phillips put her name on a private member's bill with Maria Miller to change the Equality Act to say gender identity.

This only stopped because of the referendum on Europe.

The results of the consultation were analysed and found to be in opposition to removing the medical sign off.

Overall that consultation was a good thing, a body of evidence is now held in the public domain about why it was proposed by trans people and why the public responded that it should not go ahead.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/suella-braverman-wants-to-cleanse-the-civil-service-guess-who-tried-that-in-the-1930s/

So let’s remind ourselves of what the Nazis did to the German civil service. In 1933 they passed a law designed not just to expel Jews but also to “cleanse the civil service of all those elements that had crept into it in the last 14 years, mainly because of their party affiliations, but who lacked all competence and moral qualifications”.

So this kind of thing is being compared to an email where the civil service were described as part of an "activist blob"?

It's hardly impressive evidence of a strong parallel.