How can we prevent the trans issue from being a gift to the right wing?

At the moment neither party is proposing a change, the last time self-ID was mooted as a policy in England it was by the conservatives.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66299705

'at the moment' 😂. Why would anyone trust Labour?

The point of my post is that the conservatives are culpable in this mess too and people thinking they are somehow the best option because "they know what a woman is" are delusional.

At the moment neither party is proposing a change, the last time self-ID was mooted as a policy in England it was by the conservatives.

Yes and as long as the Tories leave us hanging rather than doing anything the more chance they have of winning our voting affections over Labour!

I agree
The point of my post is that the conservatives are culpable in this mess too and people thinking they are somehow the best option because "they know what a woman is" are delusional.

At the moment neither party is proposing a change, the last time self-ID was mooted as a policy in England it was by the conservatives.

"lobbying against women's sexual freedoms." you actually meant men's, right? otherwise you're not making a whole lot of sense

Gosh, she's a glutton for punishment!

“Men dont want the public or the state to recognise their gender, they want everyone to ignore their sex. And these two acts allow that.
^^
Trying to introduce self id didnt cause the problem, it highlighted the problem.”

This is such an insightful observation.

She got back in a few weeks ago.

You seem to thoroughly enjoy policing this Board

Since when does sharing information, which others have done, when two threads are discussing the same issue. I haven't for instance, as other have done, said everyone should more to one thread or another.

Why not have a little rest, and stop obsessing about something that only exists in your head. Totally irrational

And if you find me so irritating just skip over my posts.

PS that isn't an order just a suggestion. Hope you get a good night's sleep you obviously need it.

There's now a parallel discussion going on as someone started a thread based on the Labour policy position as published by the Guardian - not one but twice!

So? Why does this bother you so much @IwantToRetire ? You seem to thoroughly enjoy policing this Board, if it's not the number of threads or duplicates or how they are titled, it's your perception of the tone posters use when posting, if not that then posters swearing, if not that then the way posters set out their arguments or comments, and now it is posters posting screenshots of Tweets.

We are adults on here, we are not in class, we are not sitting an exam we do not need or want to be taught how we should be interacting on this Board.

From conversations with friends/family/colleagues, I think the votes will go to Labour, seen as the only viable 'progressive' alternative to the SNP. From what I've seen, there's far too much anger at the SNP for people to vote for them and too many issues with Alba etc for them to be seen as anything as a wasted vote.

Eh? Who is lobbying against womens sexual freedoms? Where?
Also who is campaigning against trans rights?
If you mean us, nope, we are campaigning for women, the cunty type.

I cannot see any result for the SNP but a crushing defeat in the next election.

Who is going to defeat them?

I agree that enthusiasm for the SNP has plummeted, but where are those voters going to go?

Some will return to Labour, but not enough to form a government.

Alba is not going to come from nowhere to double figures, although they might get into the parliament.

The Tories and Lib Dems, as you say, are not in the running.

The Greens don't seem to have lost any support, despite most of the disaster being their fault.

There's now a parallel discussion going on as someone started a thread based on the Labour policy position as published by the Guardian - not one but twice!

But on there someone posted a link to a tweet from Kemi Badenoch in response to the "new" policy:

Brazen stuff from@AnnelieseDodds

Labour have had YEARS to think of a new policy on gender recognition but they didn’t. Because it’s a very difficult area that requires bravery and being honest with people. It’s a lot easier to copy and paste our policy from 3 years ago…(1/5)

Today Dodds has announced the same policy, pretending it’s new thinking -we announced improvements to modernise 3 years ago and finished them last year! This is bare-faced hypocrisy from Labour…

How can anyone trust Labour on these issues? Today Dodds says a medical diagnosis is ‘important’. Yet here’s Keir Starmer two years ago announcing the complete opposite. Will he tell us why he has changed his mind? Will he admit that he was wrong? …(3/5)

Will Starmer and Labour apologise to all the men and women insulted by Labour MPs for this policy they now claim as their own? Will they work with us to do the right thing? Or keep shouting “culture wars” anytime ministers discuss these sensitive issues? …(4/5)

Make no mistake. Labour are embarrassed at being on the wrong side of history with numerous court cases on this issue and scandals like at the Tavistock. They want to fool people and hide what they really think. They want you to think they have changed. They haven’t. (5/5)

Here's the full thread https://twitter.com/KemiBadenoch/status/1683537279770566656

Wow, thanks for that transcript! And Venice was quite right about Izzard standing on an all-women platform.

What could be more against women's sexual freedoms than unilaterally imposing on them that they are now in a same sex marriage and are a lesbian because the man they married has now decided he is a woman.

I mean, David Lammy says that women who think that women should have single sex spaces are 'rights hoarding dinosaurs'. That's what he said.

He's never retracted that statement.

It's hardly an inclusive environment for women, particularly those of us who are old enough to know that misogyny is live and kicking and that politics of gender identity is the biggest gift it was ever given.

Thanks for Venice Allen link - timely reminder. I think she was one of first. Or one of the first to go public. Some women felt it so personally they didn't talk about it.

https://thecritic.co.uk/the-labour-party-and-gender-critical-women/

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/02/if-labour-is-truly-the-party-of-equality-it-wouldnt-shut-down-the-trans-debate

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-shut-down-the-antisemitism-debate-now-its-silencing-women-hd63g5xb7
also available on archive.ph

https://mirandayardley.com/en/the-labour-party-is-no-longer-safe-place-for-women-venice-allan/

How the Labour Party treated Venice Allan.

She tried to rejoin and her membership request was rejected.

So the Labour Party doesn't want women who are prepared to publicy criticise Labour's policy on women

Did you really think postind such word salad would make it better?

And makes the Labour Party look like they would'nt want any GC women as members.

Or you have to be a closet GC woman member.

So women know your place. You are morally obliged to vote for Labour but you aren't good enough to be a member.

A poster earlier asked about the SNP.

I cannot see any result for the SNP but a crushing defeat in the next election. Even putting aside the GRR issue, they have been abysmal at just about everything. Their ridiculous power sharing agreement with the Scottish Greens, who got a pitiful share of the votes (mostly under the list system) has meant that they have been led by the nose by a party who can't do the little they are given to do well. My local Aldi has a recycling unit, built at great expense for the implementation of the DRS and is now sitting unused for the foreseeable future. Even the absolute diehard SNP voters I know and who previously wouldn't hear a word said against NS have said they'll never vote for them again. Even the Scottish Converative leader has suggested that voters tactically vote for whichever party is most likely to unseat the SNP in their area.

And the Scottish Conservatives? For various reasons, they'll never get a majority here. We've not had a Tory government since the 1950's. I'm not a fan of their policies so wouldn't vote for them anyway but neither will I vote for Scottish Labour, who will three line whip their MP's.

The Scottish Lib Dems are basically Tory Lite - for the voter who wants to virtual signal their social conscious but is quite happy with their own lot, thank you very much. Also, with the dreadful A C-H as leader who is openly contemptuous of women.

The other minority parties will never get a majority so a bit of a wasted vote really.

My own line in the sand was the Forensic Medical Services Bill. If an MP voted against the six words amendment, I will never vote for them, no matter what party they stand for.

If you're talking about Karen Ingala Smith, she wasn't expelled from the Labour party. She had already resigned twice.
She tried to rejoin and her membership request was rejected. So far as I understand, she has not tried to join since.

Eliza is quite correct in what she says.

When you say " women's sexual freedoms" do you mean women who don't suport the rebranding of prostitution as 'sex work'?

That's what all political parties do. Your bar for what constituites 'fascism' is so ludicrously low that it incorporates everyone.

Would you like to detail just what you think those decisions would have been under a current Labour leadership?

what do you think would happen with the consultations that the Tories listened too ? Do you believe honestly that Labour would have listened and not continued with the bills the consultations related to?

I am genuinely interested in understanding what you think would have happened at the time with Labour in power. Considering Lisa Nandy was very clear that male people with trans identities are considered female for prison allocation.

Are you saying she's not really center right and is being disingenuous? I can't see why she would?

I agree with you absolutely that feminism isn't automatically left wing. I do think, though, that many left wing feminists have used the tactic of saying that other approaches to women's political positio, ones that maybe say things they aren't on board with, can't be feminist. It allows them to claim to speak for women while promoting the particular policies they want, even if many women disagree with them.

In any case, I've seen lots of people on FWR assume Joyce is left wing, and it seems to come out of the assumption that someone who says what she says could not be on the right. Because, as several posters have told us, Tories really just hate and want to oppress women, so they could never really care about these issues.