How can we prevent the trans issue from being a gift to the right wing?

So they should be treated as a lesbian if that's how they identify?

Exactly. Is the pp ok with males in teen girls’ changing rooms?

If they are I doubt they are in the majority as they claim.

My personal opinion is we should treat trans people as the gender they identify with socially, but retain sex based differentiation when biology is important.

And how does that work then?

Happy to treat TW as women??

on the thread about the TW in Sheffield being directed to the male changing room, it has come to light that they are also a ‘female’ official with British swimming and as such are going into the women’s changing rooms where girls under 16 are changing.

do you genuinely think women are happy about that? do you genuinely think under age girls should have their changing rooms invaded by a man just because they’re wearing a skirt and claim lady feelings? Do you think it’s quite possible that women socialised as we are to be kind and also very aware of the need to not make men angry, just might be afraid to challenge this man?

Outside GC feminists most people are happy to treat trans women as women.

What are you basing that on?

Outside GC feminists most people are happy to treat trans women as women.

What are you basing that assertion on?

And how does one treat someone as a woman?

Outside GC feminists most people are happy to treat trans women as women.

Here's something Brian Cox wrote the other day, that I agree with

"I don’t like this sort of politics. Societies are made up of individuals with different backgrounds, opinions, economic interests and moral and philosophical positions. The primary job of politicians in my view is to at least try to navigate these differences (guided of course by their own hopefully well-thought out political philosophy) with the aim of building a stable consensus - a necessary foundation for a well-functioning and prosperous society. That’s very hard of course, but it should be the desired destination. Nobody gets everything they want in a democracy, because a free society is a collection of individuals who hold different views, but also nobody should feel absolutely defeated. This is not compromise in a wish-washy sense of the word - it’s the very essence of and indeed the guarantor of our freedom as individuals. As Feynman memorably said, democracy is based, like science, on a satisfactory philosophy of ignorance; running societies is very hard, and nobody really knows how to do it, so we regularly change direction whilst building on the achievements of the past. Understanding this requires humility, and the instinct to unify rather than to divide. Seeking division therefore runs counter to everyone’s interests because it undermines a key idea underpinning democracy itself - the idea that individuals have legitimately differing views."

I would rather go with Starmer, trying to find a consensus, than any politician who picks a side. Even if it's "my side".

I've followed this for years and am firmly GC and confident of my perspective. My personal opinion is we should treat trans people as the gender they identify with socially, but retain sex based differentiation when biology is important. Plus stop suggesting medical transition is the best treatment for a psychological issue and instead treat gender dysphoria like other similar illnesses (e.g. anorexia, BIID).

I'm disappointed how the Greens, Labour and Lib Dems are so keen not to upset the trans world, that they are all letting down women.

I'm also disappointed that the best of the bad bunch (re women's rights) seems to be the Conservative Party at the moment.

I think most people are happy with the status quo - self-ID is the threat and labour have now ruled that out.

You are very much mistaken, most people are very unhappy with the status quo and as for the threat of self id being ruled out we have de-facto self id at the moment because no-one can ask about whether or not someone has a GRC because it is such a super secret. Furthermore, TW with or without a GRC are blatantly and relentlessly forcing their way into single sex spaces for women and girls caring not one jot how that makes women and girls feel. No, the status quo is not making people happy, people are very angry.

The status quo is that live and let live and be kind does not apply to women and girls.

I think most people are happy with the status quo

You think most people are happy with rapists in women’s prisons? Because that’s the current status quo.

I had a bit of time, so I dug around the main political party websites. Labour has 5 missions, Tories have 5 bullet points, the Lib Dems have a lot of detailed campaigns at local level, the SNP talk about their current manifesto and the Greens are a mess.

It's summarised upthread (I hope!)

Give it up, mate. You're flogging a dead horse. Or, to change the idiom slightly, you're trying to flog a dead horse & nobody's buying it.

He's a lawyer who doesn't interpret the Equality Act as drafted.

That's enough for me NOT to trust him.

What has he done to gain my trust as a woman?

And as much as randoms post they know my voting patterns I’ve voted for both major parties.

Labour have lost my vote, it’s their own actions

Which they can never admit to.

There is no way to balance trans right v womens rights.

I will not put myself in danger by calling a trans woman a man to their face, except miranda yardley maybe.

The debate might be heated, but not from gc womens side. We dont go to events and yell to punch tw in the face. We dont go into toilets brandishing a sword etc etc ad infinitum. We use humour in fact, hence the many threads that are funny as fuck.
Yes anyone can live as they wish, they cannot use the wrong sex facilities/sports/prison/hospital ward etc. Other than single sex staying single sex, I give zero fucks what others do.

Whilst labour have a thing about women with a penis I cant vote for them.
Saying safe spaces rather than single sex spaces is a fudge ( yes we are back to that damned sex fudge again)

I remember welcoming Starmer as a centrist right at the beginning. I actually said a Starmer v Sunak race would be no bad thing

I remember posting positive stuff on him

That was before the crazy stuff and funnily enough they’re both up at GE

He could have been good, but has managed to be such a dubious policy, flip flopping fence sitter it’s irritated too much

That's a loaded statement. Women generally are respectful, won't go looking for a fight. For some that'll mean exiting the room when a transwoman walks in, some will bow to the pressure of pronouns to be, y'know, a nice woman. Indeed the vast majority of GC males might do the same.

What's interesting is that said transwomen didn't repay the same courtesy. They still joined the WI, and maybe took over many of the talks and management duties.

They still insisted on going into women's prisons, changing rooms, sports, rape refuges, plain ol' lesbian literary clubs and dating sites/clubs.

The power dynamic is all on the one foot. And as we see on the Women Won't Wheesht thread, that foot is used constructively.

There is no "both sides" here. More zero sum game, where girls and women lose every step of the way.

To your point about Starmer, yes he'll be hoping the women of the UK agree with you.
I've seen people slice onions finely, but this is a whole other world.

Sure. Backtracking nicely

Update that spreadsheet.. 😬

The status quo is stonewall law in the police, the NHS, education, the civil service and the vast majority of the private sector

the status quo is men being able to self identify into women’s sports, I to women’s refuges & rape support services, into programmes designed to increase women’s representation in STEM or politics

Women have lost so fucking much because stonewall have misrepresented the law & the majority of the public haven’t a clue. This ‘status quo’ is one Labour want to keep and it’s not one I want.

Do as you wish but if you’re going to try to keep tabs on posters at least get it right..

You trust him, great. Not everyone does.

Oh sorry, the pro private posters all kind of blended into one...

I have never voted Labour in my life actually. I was a lib dem member but left over trans issues.

I'll vote for starmer because he is centrist, and I trust him.

I'd consider lib dem again but I don't really think Ed davey is very convincing as a leader.

The conservatives are law breaking liars who put wealth over everything and have damaged the country to the point I'm ashamed to be English. Brexit was a disaster. Boris was a liar who rewarded his friends. Truss crashed the economy. Why on earth would anyone think they are a good bet???

@GodessOfThunder

I find the GC feminism is an alt-right gateway drug argument much more compelling.

It is compelling to you.

This is because you choose to ignore the many women here telling you it's not true, from their own personal experience that they do not fit this argument, and from the well known GC women who also do not fit.

In other words, it's compelling to you because it aligns with your preexisting prejudice not because it's in any way an objectively compelling argument.

Wasn’t it you that did that long private school thread

I said there the dc were in state. Laughing at how bad you are at remembering if that invested