Entitled male refused access to female changing area (despite wearing skirt)

Also worth noting that the St Paul’s branch is noted as having ‘Halal friendly features’ on a specialist Halal booking site, so I would imagine that the hotel is well aware of competing rights and has some sort of risk assessment/impact assessment policy?

Giving Anne access to a third space for undressing/changing is obvs the best answer in a venue that advertises itself as suitable for Islamic guests:

https://en.halalbooking.com/mercure-sheffield-st-pauls-hotel-spa/p/45859

For comparison, the other Mecure branch with a pool appears on the site but does not have any verified Halal features advertised:

https://en.halalbooking.com/mercure-sheffield-kenwood-hall-spa/p/45690

Just for information, I think that Anne has had ‘gender confirmation surgery’ (quoted from own blog) although it isn’t specified what this entailed ( could be breast implants for example).

Personally, I don’t really see what difference any male body modification makes in terms of their ‘safety’ for women. Sarah Jane Baker , (‘punch a TERF’) has had full genital surgery. Ruth Pearce, who advocates for women continuing to take testosterone during pregnancy in spite of any potential harm to thé fétus, performs a self composed song which celebrates not ‘missing my 🐓, not missing my 🏀 s’.

Maybe it’s not just the physical development caused by the testosterone surge at male puberty which is permanent?

its genuinely not a wind up. I’m not sure where I stand on the issue in a personal sense eg Women’s bathrooms on an ideological. Taking kids out of the scene. I don’t know why this always happens to me I talk to people and it ends up I’m doing all this stuff that I’m not

It's a most pathetic and deliberately deceitful strawman for Anne to even suggest/respond seriously to the myth that 'the government is considering banning transwomen from using public toilets'.

I can categorically guarantee and reassure Anne that, wherever there are public toilet facilities, nobody at all will be banned from using them: there will always be a section that is suitable for and available to you - just look for the signs to see which is the appropriate one for you to use, according to your sex.

i did also concede Anne shouldn’t be in changing rooms with young girls

but you’re defending him! And you are inventing hypothetical situations that you’d be okay with to distract from the real situation that you agree is not okay. You’re defending this male person even though you know his behaviour is wrong; why is that? You should really have a think about it. This instinct to defend men at all costs is not going to serve you well in life.

So you’re ok with him there with other women not girls?

Why?

Oh! And for those women who have asked which of the three Mecure hotels in Sheffield is the one with the sensible employee, I think it’s most likely the St Paul’s one.

My rationale is that only 2/3 have a pool and St Paul’s is a) closer to the swimming competition venue and b) is a modern building (more likely to have disabled access/single user/gender neutral spaces than a period building).

Personally, I have sent a card to both hotels with pools, it says something like this:

‘just a note to thank the female employee who rightly prioritised the safeguarding of women and girls over the desires of adult male with a transgender identity - if this note has arrived at the wrong Mecure hotel please encourage your own staff to follow her brave example’

“A sense of something being off” is no help when you’re trapped in a room with a man who is much bigger and stronger than you. Better they stay out altogether, let us keep our spidey senses for every other place and occasion we need them, and switch them off in our safe single-sex toilets and changing rooms. Surely?

Beautifully put.

That trans woman does not have a right to watch female patrons of the hotel undress. What an entitled piece of shit they are!

This

What about old girls like me? I’m a couple of years younger than Anne but feel no kinship with him or any other man invading my single-sex spaces.

If it wasn't previously obvious you were on a wind-up, this ignorant and offensive comment amply confirms it. No, you don't 'get a sense' of danger in all situations - were this so, then the number of female victims of assault wouldn't be as disproportionately high as it is.

If you 'get as sense as [these things] happen' that something's awry then by that point it's a bit bloody late to do anything about it, isn't it?

A natal male in a woman's changing space would 'a sense' of something being 'off' to the extent of klaxons, flashing red lights and bells going off.

You're having a laugh, right?

@DarkDayforMN i did also concede Anne shouldn’t be in changing rooms with young girls

This is a man who has publicly gone out of his way to destroy a woman trying to do her job. That woman went to work on that day never expecting to have to deal with this and I'll bet as a result of his behaviour in refusing to go to the obvious unisex changing faculty, she is probably getting all sorts of threats, worries about her job, her own future.

It's always the same narrative in cases like this, where somebody who hasn't been able to get their way over somebody serving them goes to their manager and effectively says "I don't want them to get into A LOT of trouble (because I'm such a wonderfully reasonable person), but I DO want them to be clearly reprimanded and publicly humiliated, to prove that I was right."

The employee didn't make a single mistake and executed her job perfectly: somebody asked for a key to the changing room and she gave an appropriate one - there being two appropriate changing rooms for everybody of either sex (notwithstanding additional needs for those with disabilities).

In fact, she should be commended for her initiative and diplomacy, in seeing that the male making the request was dressed as a woman, and so guessing that he would probably feel more comfortable not instantly being given the key for the men's changing room, but would rather feel happier in the unisex room.

Lots of people would be perfectly fine in the unisex room; plenty of others would prefer to use the room exclusively for their own sex; exactly what innocent reason could there possibly be for somebody to be arrogantly expecting - and complaining as a result of being 'denied' - to be granted access to the one room out of three which is manifestly not appropriate for them? If Anne doesn't consider the unisex room to be good enough for Anne, then exactly who does Anne expect to ever be using that facility?

It’s good to know that cool, laid back, fetish positive women are ready and willing to share the gender neutral third space with Anne and pals.

It means us hairy legged, wrinkly old uptight terves and swerves can keep the ladies facilities cock & balls free for girls, women who have orthodox/conservative religious beliefs, women who have suffered the trauma of males violence and any other female who prefers a single sex space without any guilt at all!

As others have said, anyone can be as cool and inclusive as they damned well like, but they still don't get to give my rights away.

Do you know the book 'The Gift of Fear' by Gavin de Becker? It's a good book, worth a read. One of the things he says makes so much sense:

Can you imagine an animal reacting to the gift of fear the way some people do, with annoyance and disdain instead of attention? No animal in the wild suddenly overcome with fear would spend any of its mental energy thinking 'It's probably nothing'

Intuition is always right in at least two important ways; it is always in response to something and it has your best interests at heart.

When our intuition is screaming at us that something is wrong, there's a bloody good reason for that.

@Annaishere

‘There’s a book by a psychiatrist about a man that thought he was a lamp or something’

Would that be ‘ The man who mistook his wife for a hat’ by any chance?

I can see you have thought deeply about this and done thorough research into the possible psychological issues…..

Quite a lot of Anne’s internet footprint is about Anne forcibly inserting Anneself into women’s spaces and sports, regardless of the objections of actual female women.
The rest is computer programming and football.

if Anne’s long suffering wife is reading this, I recommend she seek out the Trans Widow’s support threads.

And if the two adult children Anne fathered come across this should be able to access some non judgemental psychological support via Genspect (and find some recognisable lived experiences via Children of Transitioners)

We get it, @Annaishere - you’re cool, you’re open-minded, you really really CARE about the most marginalised oppressed people on the planet. That’s wonderful, but you don’t get to give away my single-sex spaces just because you’re happy to share them with men.

Why would it matter is he had or had not has "full" surgery?

Does that mean it's okay for impotent males to invade women's spaces?
Males with no penis due to cancer surgery etc?
Gay males who wouldn't be interested in females sexually?
Asexual males?

Just because he doesn't have the relevant parts anymore, does that make him somehow not male? Does it mean that he won't be looking at the women in there, or making them uncomfortable?

Honestly, for those saying "it wouldn't bother ME", well, that's great.
But it bothers a LOT of women, and women's rights are not yours to give away.

I suppose it’s the way I have conversations

so your response to a real life not-unthreatening man, upsetting actually existing teenage girls by watching them undress, is…

that you personally wouldn’t be bothered by a hypothetical unthreatening man in women’s clothes in the same toilet as you, or in single occupancy changing rooms.

I guess it’s good to work out what your personal boundaries are but your boundaries don’t have much relevance to this thread!

How are you going to know if he’s had surgery, are you going to ask him, a stranger, if he’s had his bits inverted? Ask to have a look? Or do you think he’ll provide you with some paperwork as he enters the room?

The numbers of late transitioning men who have surgery is vanishingly small. There's a 95% chance that he still retains all of those body parts that mark him out as male.

If, and it's a big if, he's had any surgery, it's far more likely to be breast augmentation or laser hair removal.

I suppose it’s the way I have conversations.

It would definitely bother me if he hasn’t had full reassignment surgery. If he has, maybe I would feel okay in that situation. Not sure though

This is a man who has publicly gone out of his way to destroy a woman trying to do her job. That woman went to work on that day never expecting to have to deal with this and I'll
Bet as a result of his behaviour in refusing to go to the obvious unisex changing faculty, she is probably getting all sorts of threats, worries about her job, her own future. All because he wanted to change be in a room of women who expected to be completely comfortable taking their clothes off that day in a safe environment. What madness, what arrogance!