Entitled male refused access to female changing area (despite wearing skirt)

It's been suggested and rejected. TW don't get the validation from a unisex space. Many go out of their way to find a specific female space.
It's the reason why third spaces for trans people would also not work in any meaningful way.
If "TW are women" is the mantra, then TW "belong" in female spaces.

I think a unisex changing room is the perfect compromise in this situation. A man in women’s clothing doesn’t make them a woman. Just as a woman wearing trousers does not make them men.

It's been seen on threads here where well known 'reasonable' TW have listened politely to women and then said their executive decision is they will do what works for them and what they wish, regardless of impact.

When faced with that this excludes women with disabilities, faiths, cultures, trauma, belief systems from ANY ACCESS AT ALL so that they can have their preferred choice of spaces? They shrug. They do not care. All that matters is the validation they want. Women are not real humans in their eyes and inclusion is only about them.

They are happy to exclude and harm women in their own interests. That is the bottom line of this.

This person had two options. They wished to control and own all three. That excludes women. This person does not care, they just wish to do what they want, and they expect to be indulged in this or they will tantrum.

And demand that the staff member be 'trained' to subordinate women to men.

The problem is that a male person will NEVER get it. They are just unable to see beyond their male socialisation how this affects women and girls.

There is a a TW on Youtube, I won't "out" them here myself but I'm sure they have popped up in a lot of your suggestions, who is generally known for being "reasonable" in that they refuse to call women "cis" and often stand up for women and their rights.
However, their recent video has them defending their "right" to be in a public bathroom, that they won't "concede" to women in this respect, that they "belong" in there, that they "a not a threat" etc.
They just CANNOT see the issue from a female point of view BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT FEMALE!
They only started "living as a woman" a few years ago and yet they firmly believe they have a right to use female spaces, no debate.
You will never get through to these men.

They are unable to see it through the lens of womanhood, because they are not women.

@Annaishere

Firstly I would advise you as a matter of anonymity not to use your own name as part of your username.

Secondly I would suggest you read some of the threads on Chat, AIBU and Relationships where you will find women older than you describing their current lives. While you are reading, imagine what it's like to be them.

Just a feeling, but I think you are trying to work out the logic behind all this gender theory. I'm afraid that is like trying to untangle spaghetti.

But that's not the point, their chrosomes are..... of which he can't accept.

So it should be law all transgenders can't use female/male changing spaces. I don't care if their dick or tits are cut of, they are still xx or xy.

'cervix' is Latin for 'neck'. The cervix is this case being the neck of the womb.

Quite how a person could have a cervix without ever having had a womb is a great puzzle to me. Or, how would a surgeon construct a cervix? From what?

Well, precisely. If we do India the courtesy of assuming that India is somehow telling the truth, we are unavoidably left with a veritable mountain of biological, medical and scientific reality and possibility to overcome. So much that one might be led to conclude that India may just not be being completely honest with us (or also with Indiaself, who knows)...

Just for reference, I helped out once as a volunteer at the primary school swimming baths. I was asked to go in the girls' changing room to supervise as the other helper was a dad. He was not allowed in to the girls changing room, despite volunteering because his daughter was there and swimming that day, because he was male and to protect the other girls, all 10 and under. I didn't supervise my son- the dad was in with the boys and as a woman, I was in with the girls. Long hair and swim hats are a nightmare!

Has anyone reported the safeguarding concerns of Anne, a trans-identifed male, being allowed into the female changing room, with underage girls present?

Instructing the women to say nothing and don't stare if they believe someone is in their toilets and changing rooms that they feel shouldn't be there! How fucking demeaning to women and girls.

💯%. There are posters on the walls in many of these institutions to this effect. 'Protect them from harm' is one of the admonitions contained on these nasty little public documents.

As though protection of others always automatically comes under women's remit. Unless, of course, we're protecting our daughters in the female changing areas from would-be predators. Or protecting ourselves if we have religious objections or have been sexually assualted in the past. Of course that is impermissible. In that circumstance, we are bigots. We are not able to offer a 'balanced' discussion.

As to protecting them from harm, what exactly do they expect a woman to do against a determined male assailant who is, by virtue of his biological sex, bigger, stronger, and more aggressive than we are?

How is it somehow women's responsibility to protect trans women from other men, when they are the ones turning our facilities into a mixed sex free-for-all in the first place? How on earth does even the most indoctrinated double-thinker square that particular circle?

Who are the ones suggesting 'TERFs' should be kerb-stomped and decapitated, sending them rape and death threats, chucking cans of tomato soup over them, telling them they should 'die in a grease fire?'

And how many feminists are responding in kind to this aggressive verbal and threatening behaviour in kind? A cursory search should satisfy any lingering doubters' curiosity on that point.

There's your 'balance'.

and in the school holidays and weekends there are very likely to be children in there

The problem there in essence is a person who is obviously from their social media postings, not very well.

However this is part of the cohort of male people insisting on their right to use and control all the spaces, and women can give ground, be scolded and guilted into giving ground, or just plain excluded.

Women do not matter and are lesser in this philosophy: law has to be made to enforce fairness to both sexes. You will never be able to negotiate it or get all the male people involved in this cohort to accept that women should have any say in it that presents a boundary to them.

It sounds like this trans person needs to give way more (ie be more female) rather than be a standard bearer for trans rights in female spaces. If there is unisex available that seems the kindest one for this person to use.

'cervix' is Latin for 'neck'. The cervix is this case being the neck of the womb.

Quite how a person could have a cervix without ever having had a womb is a great puzzle to me. Or, how would a surgeon construct a cervix? From what?

This is such a valid point and @Boiledbeetle 's earlier post.

This damaging ideology is trying to force women and children to ignore the danger signals. The TRAs and MRAs did a good job in making us feel shamed and embarrassed at even thinking something is not right let alone voicing our fears and speaking out. It is one of the most sinister aspects in my mind. Remember the posters last year in the universities? Instructing the women to say nothing and don't stare if they believe someone is in their toilets and changing rooms that they feel shouldn't be there! How fucking demeaning to women and girls.

Reading through Anne’s blog I was struck by his total inability to be empathetic. He writes about his anxiety about coming out as a transwoman at work and in the swimming club, and I accept it must have required a huge amount of courage to start that conversation with others. Anna writes quite movingly about the understanding and compassion he met at work and the swimming group, from both colleagues and friends, who were both accepting and kind to him.

Yet despite the kindness and compassion shown to him he is unable to either recognise it, reciprocate or consider paying it back. He is for example set on using the womens changing room at the swimming club, and goes through the motions of asking female members if they have objections to this, presumably with the implication that if there are objections Anna will be the one to make other arrangements. However, a brave swimming group member did object , and what is more confided that her objection was largely based on a previous trauma which she worried would be triggered by him. Does Anna give a fuck and accept that his presence in the changing room is untenable? No. Anna’s response is to press the woman to meet and “discuss” the issue . The two “compromise”, but it is , as far as Anna is concerned, only a temporary measure, and it is clear that Anna is going to push and push until he gets his own way, with full access to the female changing room even if it causes a woman who has been kind to him undue stress and suffering.

Anna writes about how he hated his male body growing up, felt uncomfortable about natural bodily changes , but has that been transferred into a sensitivity about how other young people might feel about their changing bodies ,and a willingness to acknowledge this and reduce anxiety in young women by choosing not to enter female changing rooms during competition meets ? Again no. Anna does what Anna wants and what Anna thinks he is entitled to do.

Anna is not a very nice person, probably wasn’t a very nice person in his previous life, but nothing has changed, apart from the clothes.

I think this is what stops me getting involved in this issue at all. It’s completely overwhelming

It's fairly straight forward.

Is it ok for this person (who has open access to two facilities, one to validate their not identifying as male) to require ALL THREE spaces, when this will leave some female people with no access at all?

Their argument is quite simply that they matter and women don't.

Just for information, I think that Anne has had ‘gender confirmation surgery’ (quoted from own blog) although it isn’t specified what this entailed ( could be breast implants for example).

For all we know, this could just as easily refer to 'self-identified' 'gender confirmation surgery' - it makes no more or less sense than the 'self-identified' 'gender' situation.

India Willoughby is most insistent that India has a cervix - quite how and why any surgeon would/could have facilitated that in reality is a mystery to anybody, unless of course it is just yet another case of 'I say it, and that makes it true'.

@NicCageisnotNickCave now that's fwr levels of impressiveness right there! Thank you 🙏

And kids will ALWAYS be present in changing rooms and toilets with their mothers. What's the point of discussing hypotheticals that bear no relation to reality?

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3412053-Mumsnet-FWR-Guide-to-De-Programming-Yourself-From-Self-Harming-Kindness

Ta da!

You need to find the inner beryl thread possibly. I'm guessing you don't have children.

My children are not props for men to use in their fantasies - be they sexual or due to mental ill health. The swim coaches who let this happen all need to fired (or their clubs go bustbwhen parents find out and pull their daughters out).

Very big of you. Will you concede women have human rights too, or is that a step too far?

Then perhaps read what you write before you hit the 'post' button.

If you can't see how gratuitously offensive a comment that 'you just know when someone's dangerous' is to women who have been victims of rape and sexual assault, then I can't help you.