Men posting on ladies only interest groups

I wonder if we're in the same group! I've never commented on any of the photos, because I want to say 'you look like a bloke in a dress and a bad wig' which wouldn't go down well with the transmaidens/group admins, because 'be kind'. He never comments on any other women's pictures ...

I'd want to comment on FB that trail-running is one of those activities where women get to be just themselves and step away from societal attempts to push a particular way to be a successful way to 'be a woman' on women. So it's not really the place for conversations about fripperies like make up. Could people start another conversation group for that and, in the interests of inclusivity, make it a sex-neutral space because obviously in this day and age many men wear make up and many women don't.

There’s a couple of men on a Facebook group I follow. One in particular is a prolific poster that gets so many comments about how wonderful he looks (reader: he does not) but what’s interesting is how he has managed to get this following. He doesn’t engage with anyone else’s posts, only replies to comments on his posts. So self centred.

I'm not that kind of man, but I've met the type, every so often in my client base and occasionally socially. But no, I can't imagine the sheer anxiety and fear.

Even if we give a slight pass to the odd individual who isn't looking to run women's faces in it, the determined ones most certainly are.

The bonus for them is those women who happily wave them thru, happy to end lifelong relationships with GC friends over this.

That's like the Golden Ticket for these guys. Can't imagine these males ever thinking they'd get so lucky that actual women would step over women to promote them.

Just easier all round to let the poor dear in, and put up with the angst of members and any possible departees.

Transwomen can be really intimidating when they're requesting accommodations though, even when they're asking nicely. It can be really hard to say no to them and at least some (if not many) of the women who say "yes, you can join then" don't do it because they feel sorry for them but because they feel intimidated by them. Yes, they're concerned about the repetitional risk and threat of legal action, but also there's the ago-old dynamic that they are women and transwomen are men demanding access who don't like to be told no.

Not all women give in for this reason, obviously, and there are many who will be quite vocal about how marginalised transwomen are (some of whom will genuinely believe that and some of whom will simply say it to avoid being vilified). But there is definitely a subset of women's group organisers who don't open the gates to transwomen willingly and who agonise about the decision they feel they've been forced into to ensure the survival of the group they've built up over years.

It's a horrible position for women to be in and once an organiser has been asked, there's no way of making the problem go away without having to take a stand one way or another. Groups typically either go smaller and underground or get on board with TWAW, so either way the group is radically changed by the request for access.

I've also noticed men modelling female clothes on Vinted. I'm not going to buy anything that's being shown at it's worst advantage on a completely wrong body shape, you plonker. Most of the women selling their clothes don't even model them themselves, because they often don't fit well, that's why they're selling them.

Somebody needs to pipe up and have a rant on a make-up-while-running post about the misogyny of women being expected to/feeling they need to wear makeup at all. Especially while running. Go on about how femininity is not defined by long hair or makeup, or what you wear, preferably whilst quoting Andrea Dworkin or Germaine Greer. That would take the wind out of an AGP's sails, without even mentioning the word trans. He has nothing without his shallow coating of a very superficial idea of what a woman is. And it would turn the focus back to true womanhood. But yes, he shouldn't be there in the first place.

Absolutely not. The roots for this rot really run deep, worse than Japanese Knotweed.

The organisers will be half worried if they tried to ban him, would they be open to being sued, and half worried what he'd say on FB, and the ensuing stick.

Just easier all round to let the poor dear in, and put up with the angst of members and any possible departees.

It's particularly the wearing make up whilst running or similar theme that would annoy me (like Sweaty Betty sending me cards telling me I need bum sculpting leggings). Just running isn't enough, it's being reminded that women are expected to also look attractive whilst doing it. Personally I feel better when out of breath and sweaty and maybe covered in mud because it's about what my body can do, I don't want to have to think about what I look like.

These guys know they're pissing off those in the group other than their middle class female cowardly facilitators, and that their effect carries on as women quit. That must be quite the power to wield, and feeling to get off on.

Yes, absolutely, but I don't think it's fair to put all of the blame for their inclusion on the heads of the group organisers, given all the societal grooming and bullying that's rife around these issues.

Yes, it would be wonderful if every woman could stand up and say no to every man wherever they wanted to, but that's not the world we live in, and the transwomen muscling their way into wonen's single-sex spaces know this and use this.

I was really just stretching a point to its hugely (il)logical extreme. What a world where men barge in to a women only space, getting off on the chaos that ensues. Even more so living in the heads of women that feel compelled to leave. But hating the possible end point if all that remains when the dust has settled, is these new women have only themselves for company, with no more real women to bully.

What have I done? I've chosen to speak up when I can, not to censor, to challenge. It's nothing in the grand scheme, but what else can you do. And I certainly won't vote to let the party of institutional misogyny into power.

As you've said, maybe the male POV isn't wanted on this thread in particular. All I really wanted to do is share some of what I've read that really proposes the institutionalised hate of women now given a pass by so many, incl more women than you could contemplate, works on so many levels.

These guys know they're pissing off those in the group other than their middle class female cowardly facilitators, and that their effect carries on as women quit. That must be quite the power to wield, and feeling to get off on.

I'll jog on now.

Theoretically perhaps, but while this may be an interesting theoretical issue to some, for others it's the quality of our real lives being eroded, as hobbies and single-sex communities we once enjoyed are stolen from us.

The misogynists would hate it, yes, but so would the women who have lost out. We would be cutting off our noses to spite our faces. For women, it's not about leaving them to it, it's about retaining our own quality of life and saying no to men in women's single-sex spaces.

Part of what happens in these situations I think is down to bad judgement.

There are cases where it can be ok for an exception to be made for a rule. I belong to a woman only online interest/social group. Quite a long-standing one with a regular group over many years. We did once have a man come on a few times - after his wife, a long time member, had dies. Mainly to update the members on what was happening. No one minded, everyone was happy, and said please pop in once in a while to let us know what was happening with the kids if he liked. It would have been upsetting if he hadn't reached out at all.

But there is a pretty large group of people who don't seem to be able to understand when exceptions make sense, and when they don't. They are sort of gullible, and men like this guy depend on them.

This isn't a woman only group, nor a woman only thread. And what do you mean he arrived to educate us all? - he posted one post giving his thoughts like everyone else.

So no, it's nothing like that.

I realise that wasn't your intention, which is why I thought you might be receptive to my pointing out how it can come across to people who haven't been socialised as male and how our perspectives on this might differ.

If I thought you were some sort of troll (playing a weird long-con), I would have just ignored your posts, but since I get the impression you are genuinely interested in helping women and are angry about the situations we face too, I thought it was worth mentioning as it seems to me that, never having been a woman, you couldn't possibly appreciate the female perspective on men in women's spaces, for obvious reasons. In my opinion, your comments on this thread understandably demonstrate a lack of awareness of the nuances of the female perspective, and a lack of awareness of how similar your manner is to transwomen's behaviour when they come into female spaces, which is especially ironic given that your point often centres around the fact that you know how transwomen think because they're male.

I'm not saying sling your hook at all, more like "read the room". You know what it's like to be a man, yes, and of course there are many contexts where that can be an extremely helpful perspective. But you don't know first-hand what it's like to be a woman whose valued single-sex spaces are being invaded by men.

So when women are lamenting about losing their spaces, it might just be worth considering whether that's a thread that really needs a man's opinion (even if it is to say how selfish and insensitive some men can be) or whether, given the issue being discussed, it might be more helpful and supportive to step back and allow women some breathing space to discuss the issue without men offering yet another male perspective...on a thread discussing how annoying it is that women can't have anything without men inserting themselves into it.

Obviously post where you like and say what you like, but my personal opinion is that it would probably be more helpful to women to have some space where women's perspectives can be centred on MN without having an angry man come on to tell us we're all screwed.

There are plenty of other threads that focus on the political/strategic side of things where your perspective as a man is very helpful. It's just that a man wading into this particular issue tends to exacerbate the problem for the female posters involved as, regardless of intention, it's still a man wading into a women's space (the women's space I'm referring to being a discussion about men in women's spaces specifically, not the whole of FWR or MN).

So even if you're on this thread to say how awful and selfish it is for men to come into women's spaces, it's worth keeping in mind what you're doing as you condemn others for it. I know you don't want to be tarred with the same brush as transwomen, but as you consistently point out, you are all men, and you do share many traits that can be detrimental to women.

Alright, I didn't realise your comment was ironic. Because I've heard many people (men and women) say that female athletes ought to resign in protest. It's all very well to say. But it's putting the responsibility of fixing the problem onto the victims of the problem, to their immediate detriment.

I’m happy to report that on a women’s golf group on FB a bloke started offering advice to female golfers.

Clearly he didn’t get the gushing responses he wanted and/ or was told to piss off. He posted a woe-is-me flouncing message and left. 😀

It’s quite difficult enough for women to be involved in sport without men butting in.

My comment was totally ironic. Of course not. I'm saying at this rate, theoretically women pulling out leaves these groups only populated by the new women. And that these misogynists would hate that.

I didn't know the commenter above was a man but I do dislike the notion that women ought to withdraw from things that men have invaded - sacrifice their own membership of whatever it is. Like when people say female athletes ought to withdraw from competitions if they let men into them. And the idea is that's how the competition will end. Er, no. Why should women give up their livelihoods or hobbies or whatever just because men invade them. Maybe they should be stopped by the organisers. Or, in the case of sports, spectators should stop attending. Why is everything the female victims' responsibility to fix? What rubbish

So, I'm defacto being compared to, or am directly equivalent, the the male interloper in this trail running group. Not the intention.

If MN really wants to become a female only forum, no argument from me, and I'll sling my hook. If I'm being criticised for heavy handed monopolising, I don't think I agree (if I did, I wouldn't do it).

Seems like a situation someone like me can't escape being tarred with a particular negative.

RealityFan, just to add, I nearly didn't say anything as I know you contribute to many of the same threads as I do, and I really value MN and the community here (including your input, most of the time!).

So I had to think twice about whether it was worth risking losing a community I value so highly to say what I really think and potentially upset people, or whether it's best to just let the man do his thing and stay silent, even if it's jarring, in order to keep the peace and so I don't lose out on the community altogether.

This choice felt exactly the same to me as the times transwomen have elbowed their way into women's groups I previously cherished. And it makes sense that it would feel the same to anyone who believes that transwomen are men, because it is the same.

The only downside for them would be if every woman pulled out, so all that would be left would be them.

You mean like what happened to this thread when a man arrived to educate us all?

Can you not see the irony of a man (albeit a GC one) coming in so heavy-handed on a thread started by a woman about men invading women's spaces?

I know you mean well and want to help, but I'm guessing that as a man, you haven't spent too much time in women's single sex spaces yourself.

Quoting women's posts as if you are specifically intending to engage with their points and then continuing to post your own thoughts that only very tangentially relate to what the women said is exactly the kind of thing that transwomen do in women-only spaces. It's all about them and the women are merely props for their validation and to provide an audience and a reflection of their self-perception.

I wouldn't expect you to be aware of this, as there's no reason you would know what goes on in women-only spaces or how the dynamic changes when a man enters. But I think now is as good a time as any to mention it, given the subject of the thread.

I'm in a women only Facebook group in Edinburgh, it's mostly general chat but because it is very specifically women only there are sometimes posts about quite personal things that I believe the posters feel confident in posting because it's a closed and women only group. However there are at least two trans women (one might be NB I'm not 100% sure but they are ab infamous Edinburgh university student) in it. They lurk and rarely post anything at all - seems quite different to the experience in many other groups. I'm not sure why.

The men win twice over. They get to practice bullying in plain sight with the support of so many transmaidens. Could they ever have imagined this outcome?

And they also get their rocks off knowing they live in the heads of so many women whom they know they've pretty much ruined so many experiences for, either unhappily still engaging, or unhappily pulling out.

The only downside for them would be if every woman pulled out, so all that would be left would be them.

I guarantee there'd be no fun for the new women if all these clubs ended up with only new women in them.

Guess what? The clubs would all cease.

Like a scorched earth policy.

Same on a wild swimming group I follow with lots of 'you go girl' from handmaidens. Infuriating