Science of trans

His suggestion that (some) paedophiles could be satisfied by pornographic line drawings contradicts most existing research about motivation, reinforcement and habituation

I agree and know that in ‘anger management’ courses now it is NOT advised to, for example, hit a pillow on the grounds that it does no one any harm.

The reason given is that that would reinforce the primitive brain’s immediate ‘hit’ response. Instead people are advised to pause, step away and count down to give time for the balancing side of the brain to engage.

On the other hand, I can see there is a dilemma as, if there is no stopping the urge to hit, a pillow provides some reduction of harm.

I would guess a line drawing is going to be very unsatisfying in the end when someone knows that more realistic images, and ultimately real children, are out there.

NecessaryScene · 20/07/2023 21:38

Thank you for the link to those podcasts. I listened to no 57 about feminine males who are androphilic, based mostly around research of Fa’afafine in Samoa where they are accepted.

What is striking in terms of our Western ideas, is that:

They display recognisably more typically feminine behaviour and interests from a young age, coupled with attraction to masculine males.

They know they are biologically male; only very few have dysphoria about their bodies - they don’t need to be trans in our sense.

They have nothing in common with autogynephilic older males; or with adolescent girls with ROGD.

It is noticeable to me that anthropological speaking there is something, however it may vary from culture to culture, that can be taken as more typically feminine or masculine behaviour or interests, for all that this is supposed to be only a social construct.

We certainly should never give feminine little boys or more masculine little girls any idea whatsoever that they are in the wrong bodies, as it seems that virtually all of them would either be gay, but happy in their bodies, or grow up as heterosexual and accepting of their bodies.

The whole idea we have that -transsexuals with deep, long standing gender dysphoria; feminine little boys or masculine little girls; unhappy teenagers with a history of autism, trauma or abuse; and autogynephiles - are “trans”, is misguided and dangerous.

Actually I’ve just checked my spam email and apparently I made a sweeping negative generalisation about a group which is not allowed. I’m not sure how I can word what I want to say about social stigma shifting from one group to another and in some instances being a necessity without crossing Mumsnet’s rules so I think I’ll leave this thread now as I don’t want to risk a suspension.

Its all cross dressing.

Whats changed is the social pressure of everyone to pretend that it isnt, and that being female doesn’t make a women, but gender does. If a man dresses as a woman, and behaves as we expect women to behave, he becomes a woman. The reason older transitioners are happy to acknowledge their sex is because they dont see sex as relevant to being a woman.

If you report your post and ask why your other post was deleted, MN will tell you. I have done this several times.

On the plus side, if they haven't sent you an automatic email to say why your post was deleted, it means they haven't issued you with a 'strike' for your wrong think.

I've been deleted. Not sure why. It would be helpful if Mumsnet could give some indication of what wrong-think line we have crossed when we are deleted so we can avoid making the same mistake again.

I think the depiction of the 'old school transsexual' as benign is a fantasy. The main reason they were not a problem was because there were so few of them and they weren't being prioritised by governments and organisations.

Plus they would have felt social pressure to be on their best behaviour. Any man expecting any sort of general public acceptance as a woman would have to do their best to downplay any sexual aspect and not push their luck.

And anyone already on the edge of social acceptance would absolutely not have improved their lot by trying to add "transsexual" on top.

Whereas these days we end up with "It's Ma'am!", Rachel McKinnon, Ginny, Sarah-Jane Baker, etc. Men whose behaviour is clearly unconstrained, and who are actually getting extra license because of the "trans".

Years ago we had so few people who could actually fit the description of a transsexual and they weren't pushing to trample on women's rights.

I think the depiction of the 'old school transsexual' as benign is a fantasy. The main reason they were not a problem was because there were so few of them and they weren't being prioritised by governments and organisations. Jan Morris certainly seems to have trampled on Morris's wife and daughter.

See archive link to article in the Sunday Times by Suki Morys in this thread.
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4695399-sunday-times-article-by-jan-morriss-daughter

Older heterosexual male transitioners like Jan Morris (over 40, father of several children, married to a woman) usually transition for completely different reasons to those who transition when younger, many of whom are gay.

I'm not sure you can say that someone like that 'had to' transition, although they obviously feel a need to do so, and in Morris's case (which is quite typical of this type of transitioner) this was regardless of the effect it would have on his wife and children.

I'm not sure what makes the pretence of some men that they are women more 'genuine' than others. What do you mean by 'genuine' here?

Not at all. This is a good thread and shows Mumsnet isn’t all transhate but more nuanced- we’re genuinely interested, albeit with a firm baseline of protecting women.

Thank you for being so gracious.

Such a surprise that older trans people are happier.

It’s known get happier as they get older, so possibly it’s not such a surprise, especially if they’re doing what they want.

@Florissante Happy to be corrected. Couldn’t think of any older trans people.

Whoa.

Lady Colin Campbell is NOT trans. She is female and was born with a disorder of sexual development - fused labia. It was mistakenly believed that she was male due to this condition. As she grew up, her father refused to let her be treated for her condition. He mocked her for having a female figure.

Lady CC was approximately 20 years old when her grandmother paid for her to have corrective surgery.

Whatever you might feel about her calling her "trans" is wrong and unfair to a woman who suffered because of malformed genitalia.

The men who transition later in life will have cross dressed for years before doing it full time. They have chosen how far to go and when, and dont care as much how people perceive them.

The young men are more self conscious. They want everyone to see their appearance as profound, but also cant handle the negative reaction. Also, they are encouraged to be themselves in public when every previous generation was doing it in private.

They also have the added pressure of drugs and surgery that the older generations didnt have. They know they are making life changing decisions.

Yes, it was deliberately pushed and the people pushing have always known the consequences.

I wonder whether older trans are happier is because they’re more likely to be ‘genuine’.
Jan Morris, Lady Colin weren’t manipulated or groomed, they lived as they had to, whereas younger Trans I feel are trying to fix something but living as the other gender is rarely the solution.
And is it older= living as the other gender for longer? Would a 60yo who transitioned a year ago be as happy as someone who’d been Trans for decades.
Thanks for the recommendation.

I suspect the only thing preventing paedophiles from being added to the lgbtqia+++ is stigma.

Yes he said older transgender people seemed happier, the old school ones who were happy to acknowledge their biology but present as a transwoman/man bc they'd had time to live as an adult to know what they would be sacrificing to present outwardly as the opposite sex onwards

I dont think this is true, though.

If they are happy to acknowledge their biology why the move to change male id to female? Why the 'privacy' clauses in GRA where its difficult to disclose that the person is actual not the sex they claim to be? Thats not the actions of a group who are happy to acknowledge their sex.

Well my position on this is best summed up by trying to consider the difference between a 'man' and a completely unaltered 'trans woman/transwoman' the quality that would cause transition to be appropriate and correct response.

It is EITHER

1. Something physical, (which whilst we don't know and understand it yet could be known and understood. Could be found in a blood test on nb's, or a brain scan)

OR
2) it something metaphysical, ineffable, unverifiable but (for the faithful) profound

The question would however remain, if it is (1) why would those particular physical differences be considered more important and significant than people's sex.